351 W won't run up after restart
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51344
Printed Date: November-25-2024 at 1:18am
Topic: 351 W won't run up after restart
Posted By: Rich 28
Subject: 351 W won't run up after restart
Date Posted: August-29-2023 at 7:10am
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First time posting… been having trouble with my 351w. Last year trouble idling, throttling up etc. This spring Marina installed new Holley 4160.
Ran fine, pulled skiers etc. for 1 to 1 1/2 hrs. After shutting off, upon restart the secondary do not open although they will open manually when underway. Everything points to vacuum?
Talked to 3 different Holley technicians. They are not sure what the problem is but suggested doing all the work listed below. Nothing changed. Then they said all points to vacuum or something in the vacuum secondary which is sourced via vacuum from Venturi in the primary when accelerating?
Here is what we did Electronics: Installed PerTronicx ignition, Epoxy coil, rotor, cap, plug wiring and plugs. Fuel: Removed tank and cleaned (found nothing in it). Replaced all fuel lines, fuel pump and filter. Carb: Holley suggested we take the vacuum apart and inspect the diaphragm but when I old them it is a new carb they suggested getting it covered under warrantee..which we did. Marina ordered another carb and installed. Boat runs fine for that 1.5 hrs then upon restart after 10 to 15 min. the secondaries open but only allow the boat to get to 3K. Any ideas? ------------- Rich 28 |
Replies:
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: August-29-2023 at 8:20am
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Something else is going on. one can get 38-39 mph on just the primaries maybe sticky advance mechanism ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: Rich 28
Date Posted: August-29-2023 at 11:43am
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Thanks. I read about that and am planning to check out timing at idle and WOT. I believe I am looking for 6-8 and 22 wide open? ------------- Rich 28 |
Posted By: Rich 28
Date Posted: August-29-2023 at 11:46am
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Also could it be a vacuum issue even though Holley told me the vacuum was internal to the carb... but not too clear on that or how to check that out... ------------- Rich 28 |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: August-29-2023 at 12:20pm
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i suspect they are speaking of its venturi vacuum, from the cfm, from the rpm. Not manifold vacuum If your manifold vacuum was so bad that it wouldn't rev, then engine would never come close to being able to idle. so likely not that. not quite. 20-22 is advance on top of the base initial timing, 8-10 at idle and 32-34ish above 3-3500 ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-30-2023 at 12:56pm
Your two statements above from the first post don't exactly agree with each other Is one what happened with the first carburetor and the other what happened with the second carburetor? What do you mean by manually when underway? You do it with your fingers or something else PS....................I see that you're taking the multiple forum approach looking for answers  |
Rich 28 wrote:Posted By: Rich 28
Date Posted: September-01-2023 at 9:15am
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Yes first on first carb, second situation on second. Update, yesterday: Checked compression 130+ on all 8 Installed insulating sleeve on copper fuel line to pump to carb Checked advance. Pretty rusty in there and one spring looks a little elongated (will try to post pic). Lubricated and checked timing which is 8-10 at Idle and 20+ at about 3k (ran for just a few seconds as it was on hose) Planning water test this weekend..... ------------- Rich 28 |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: September-01-2023 at 9:22am
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The heavy spring is supposed to be a little slack. the light spring is typically first to fail. the corrosion and any stickiness is of concent. Your 20+ at 3k is low, should be 30+, and if accurate, the advance mechanism is suspect ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: Rich 28
Date Posted: September-01-2023 at 9:28am
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Having trouble dragging photos into this message but the heavy spring that has an elongated loop looks fine and is slack. The other looks like the coils are farther apart from each other at the end towards the outside of the distributor. I will keep trying to get a photo up here. I am guessing I can find the springs somewhere or would you think I should just replace the Distributor. ------------- Rich 28 |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: September-01-2023 at 10:33am
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after some thought experiment, old stretched out small spring can limit the available max advance, if its sloppy and using up too much of the span at idle, leaving less available as revs increase twist the rotor to exercise and evaluate the mechanism i've used these springs from the Zon with success. the small is a little stiff but a little careful prestretch makes it work much like oem  ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: September-01-2023 at 10:36am
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QUick Reply box wont load pictures. press <Post Reply> button then press the<picture of a tree> button to upload images make sure the curser is in the text box before you press the tree ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: Rich 28
Date Posted: September-01-2023 at 10:54am
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THANK YOU . I will order and install. The springs on there now are VERY rusted.... Thanks again, Rich ------------- Rich 28 |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-01-2023 at 2:00pm
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I guess we're all having to make assumptions here that you have a PCM engine with a Prestolite distributor either screw down cap or clip down cap, but not knowing the year or anything else it's hard to give you any kind of good info. I even looked at the "other place" and there's a general lack of info. Nobody around here cares if it's something not named a Correct Craft |
Posted By: Rich 28
Date Posted: September-04-2023 at 11:03am
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Received and installed the new springs yesterday, thank you for the link. Drove to the lake and water tested. Boat ran fine for 1.5 hrs.... great out of the water, right up to max throttle engine temp 170 +/-. Sopped to swim maybe 10-15 minutes. Starts right up, gets right out of the water and runs fine until 1/2 to 3/4 throttle. When throttled beyond that point engine looses steam as if it is not getting any more fuel. When throttle pulled back runs fine (at 1/2 -3/4 ) but will not go beyond 32-35 mph. Thinking that vapor lock may be an issue or maybe fuel pressure? Wondering if should put a pressure gauge inline and check results. Thanks for any thoughts…. Ps: Yes PCM with Prestolite clip down, its a 85 MC but thinking maybe we should sell it and buy a correct craft lol ------------- Rich 28 |
Posted By: Rich 28
Date Posted: September-04-2023 at 11:05am
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Received and installed the new springs yesterday, thank you for the link. Drove to the lake and water tested. Boat ran fine for 1.5 hrs.... great out of the water, right up to max throttle engine temp 170 +/-. Sopped to swim maybe 10-15 minutes. Starts right up, gets right out of the water and runs fine until 1/2 to 3/4 throttle. When throttled beyond that point engine looses steam as if it is not getting any more fuel. When throttle pulled back runs fine (at 1/2 -3/4 ) but will not go beyond 32-35 mph. Thinking that vapor lock may be an issue or maybe fuel pressure? Wondering if should put a pressure gauge inline and check results. Thanks for any thoughts…. Ps: yes it is a PCM w/ Pprestolite. 85 MC. Thinking we might be better off just selling this boat and buying a Correct Craft lol ------------- Rich 28 |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: September-04-2023 at 4:32pm
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Gas tanks have a vent and usually an anti siphon valve at the tank. It sounds like you are not venting and the tank is creating a vacuum that stops your gas flow. Next time it bogs down on you go back to the gas filler cap and loosen it. If you feel vacuum as you loosen the gas cap you found the issue. Just one more thing to rule out. Mark
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Posted By: Rich 28
Date Posted: September-04-2023 at 5:02pm
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Thank you Mark. Will check that out when we get to the lake... hoping it might be as easy as that. ------------- Rich 28 |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-04-2023 at 6:04pm
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If you drive the boat with no issues for more than an hour , shut it off and the issue comes up right after you start it, I don't think the issue is that you're suddenly sucking a vacuum in the tank. It would have happened sometime during that hour or so and not right after startup.. How about a link to where you bought that spring kit? it can't hurt to put a fuel pressure gauge on it for test purposes and a vacuum gauge would probably give you some good info too..
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Posted By: Rich 28
Date Posted: September-04-2023 at 6:24pm
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The link is above from GottaSki. Will test fuel pressure but don't know where we would connect the vacuum Gauge... TY ------------- Rich 28 |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-04-2023 at 6:47pm
But it's not a link and the "Zon" doesn't seem to have them from anybody so I figured I'd see where you got them from. Your carburetor might have a capped vacuum connection for below throttle plate vacuum or you can tap into the line that runs from the carb spacer to the PCV valve. Either a Tee in the line or just unplug the line from the PCV valve and hook the vacuum gage into the line with an appropriate adapter.
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Posted By: Rich 28
Date Posted: September-05-2023 at 7:39am
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http://finditparts.com" rel="nofollow - finditparts.com 888-312-8812 Item: # 018-1001 by Pertronix Cost 2.95 Shipping 15.37 Was delivered the next day ------------- Rich 28 |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: September-05-2023 at 1:28pm
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FYI: Find it Parts used to be a customer of mine. The owner was probably a genius, built a few companies before starting this one. They owned a heavy duty truck warehouse and brake lining company. He used all his contacts from that business to start find it parts. They hold no inventory at all. He is just a go between, his expertise is his computer system. Someone asks for a part and his guys do the legwork to find it and supply it. His vendors take the order and ship it. They do have one of the best computer systems out there doing this work but they offer little information or details about the parts for you. Nothing like an old time parts store where they helped solve your problems. I usually look for suppliers that actually stock the part and offer some information about the part if needed. ------------- |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-05-2023 at 8:32pm
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So just to make sure this is being understood right, on a cold start everything is fine, the boat accelerates good, gets up to 40 something MPH and will idle when you stop to get a skier or whatever, and if you turn it off it starts and runs like it should Then after about an hour to an hour and a half, you turn it off and swim for 15 minutes, then you start it and it idles smoothly or maybe kinda ragged, accelerates up to about 32 to 3500 RPM and won't go any faster. Does it start easily and idle smoothly and accelerate smoothly after that 15 minute swim? Did it do this before the carburetor swap(s)? or just started this year when you were trying to fix last year's rough running Is it running smooth at that 32 to 3500 rpm or spittin' and sputterin' ?
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Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: September-06-2023 at 9:38am
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and checking...One doesn't have the key on for a stereo during that time, yes? ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: Faceplant
Date Posted: September-06-2023 at 7:58pm
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From MrMcD FYI: Find it Parts used to be a customer of mine. The owner was probably a genius, built a few companies before starting this one. They owned a heavy duty truck warehouse and brake lining company. He used all his contacts from that business to start find it parts. They hold no inventory at all. He is just a go between, his expertise is his computer system. Someone asks for a part and his guys do the legwork to find it and supply it. His vendors take the order and ship it. They do have one of the best computer systems out there doing this work but they offer little information or details about the parts for you. Nothing like an old time parts store where they helped solve your problems. I usually look for suppliers that actually stock the part and offer some information about the part if needed.
Makes sense now. Find It Parts always pops up first when I search for semi parts but always seems kind of vague on thier descriptions. Also - never any pictures of product..
------------- Feels like I am hanging 10 but in reality - probably hanging 6. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: September-07-2023 at 2:10am
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Find it parts is cutting edge as far as marketing. They pay google a large amount of money every month to make sure they pop up at the top of the list when you search. I had no idea this was possible before I worked with this account. If you pay google they will move you to the top of searches. Kind of defeats the neutral search option. You get to see what they choose to show you in the order they choose to show you. With that said, they move parts, the process is working for them. They were a partner in American Moving Parts in Los Angeles which I believe is still in business. They did a lot with the Bus Transportation companies, airports and transit stuff. ------------- |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-07-2023 at 7:08am
I guess this would make me wonder why they never, as in not even once, have showed up at the top of any Google search I've ever done looking for parts I never heard of the outfit till this thread They sell on EBAY too, here's a link to an absolutely phenomenal deal ...............one Autolite 145 spark plug for the ridiculous price if 13.78 At least it's free shipping Their feedback rating isn't exactly anything to brag about either. http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_dkr=1&iconV2Request=true&_blrs=recall_filtering&_ssn=finditparts&store_name=finditparts&_oac=1&_nkw=autolite%20145" rel="nofollow - link Time to return to our regularly scheduled programming now |
Posted By: Rich 28
Date Posted: September-07-2023 at 7:30am
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KENO, First sentence: yes all correct Second: Yes idles smoothly, accelerates smoothly up to 32 and then won’t go any faster. Beyond 32, throttle does nothing Third: Yes after swim starts fine and idles as normal Carb swap: No it did not do this before the swaps…. just was hard starting and rough idle and occasionally backfiring Lastly Runs smooth at 32 until Also prior to last voyage, installed new springs in distributor. Also checked gas cap for vacuum noise, same engine performance. Note when we removed the tank we also replaced the vent line. Ordered vacuum and fuel pressure test kits, arrival early next week. Suppose we remove the carb and riser and seal the gaskets with permatex. One more thing checked off the list? Ps: no stereo in boat ------------- Rich 28 |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-07-2023 at 7:42am
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I'd put new gaskets in both between the spacer and manifold and the spacer and carburetor. No gasket sealer needed. You need some gaskets like PCM RM0054B They're wide and cover any potential vacuum leak paths Many gaskets won't seal right between the spacer and the manifold because they're not wide enough in the right places. There's a spot that can burn through in the gasket from exhaust gases in the crossover passage and create issues. Is the ignition new this year too? Probably a Pertronix flamethrower coil too Ballast resistor eliminated per instructions? Does the coil get blazing hot? If it does, put a wet rag over it while you swim to cool it off and see what happens
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Posted By: brhillman
Date Posted: September-07-2023 at 8:26pm
| Seems like the key piece here is that it runs fine when cold, but not once it’s warm. When we first got our boat it would run fine cold and then wouldn’t idle when warm. It turned out to be a vacuum leak at the carb spacer once it heated up. When things get hot they can warp differently, and I think that’s what was happening at the spacer: everything sealed up fine when cold but then once it warmed up and warped enough it wouldn’t run worth a darn. Fixed with a new spacer and the thick gaskets from skidim. Maybe not the same issue you’re having since I’d think a vacuum leak would present in a horrible idle rather than a top end restriction, but maybe you’re looking at something similar. |
Posted By: brhillman
Date Posted: September-07-2023 at 8:39pm
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Another thought, it sounds like the electronic ignition is new as well. Have you thought about or tried putting the breaker points back in and seeing if that changes things? Which kit did you put in, or did I miss that in this thread? Edit: rereading, maybe the ignition change was one of your tries at fixing the problem and happened after the problem already had started. In which case, disregard my comment entirely. |
Posted By: Rich 28
Date Posted: September-08-2023 at 7:08am
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Yes we replaced it with a new Pertronix ignition and epoxy coil. thanks ------------- Rich 28 |
Posted By: Rich 28
Date Posted: September-08-2023 at 7:11am
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Just ordered gaskets and planning to check spacer and other surfaces for warping when apart. Thank you! Will post an update after install. ------------- Rich 28 |
Posted By: mosinee77
Date Posted: September-08-2023 at 1:54pm
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When you swapped the carb , did you verify that the carb linkage is the same and provides the same throw as the old carb? What I'm getting at is do the butterfles go to wide open with the throttle is wide open. Also, check the torque on the carb flange bolts. Overtightening can cause some warpage and vacuum leaks that will make the engine run poorly.
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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-23-2023 at 7:08am
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I will boldly go out on a limb here and predict that Rich solved his problem with new gaskets above and below the spacer.............mostly because he told me that it was fixed after the gasket changes The spacer to manifold gasket was kinda ugly.
Any more details will have to come from him.
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Posted By: Rich 28
Date Posted: September-24-2023 at 6:26pm
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Well, here is good news. Removed carb and the riser under carb. Gasket between riser and manifold was broken and apparently leaking .Replaced both gaskets and all runs well. Still doesn't make complete sense to me but I like the end result. I would like to thank everyone who helped along the way to a solution... ------------- Rich 28 |