Distributer cap- wiggle... crank no start
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51626
Printed Date: November-21-2024 at 9:47am
Topic: Distributer cap- wiggle... crank no start
Posted By: jmesser
Subject: Distributer cap- wiggle... crank no start
Date Posted: June-19-2024 at 7:43pm
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New project fell into my lap. The engine is a LH 351 in an 84 model. -Started briefly. -After I got it home, went to start it after it sat a while, and it would try to start after I let off the key, but never stayed on, just a few hits. -I had a problem while trying to start it, where the starter stayed engaged and cranking after I turned the key all the way off. A scramble to pull the battery cable ensued. Put in a Perko disconnect and when I turned the BATT on (Off to #1) it started cranking. So the relay was stuck and after I hit it with a hammer it reset. I replaced the relay and all good there. -Still unable to start (crank but not starting and staying on), knowing I had low voltage that probably made my relay stick, I put the battery charger on the battery and cranked it over. She fired up! I turned it off immediately since I did not have water on. -Went and got a new Marine Cranking Battery 1000 Cranking Amps and installed.... just turns over/cranks no start at all. -Replaced battery terminals with new brass ones, took off all grounds and wire wheeled as well as red connection. No change. -Pulled rotor cap and noticed carbon button popped all the way out with spring bent up. I also noticed the cap wiggles a little (it is the clamp style) -Went and got a new cap at O'Reilly's since all the marine stores are out. It looks exactly the same. It also wiggles. Still crank but no start. - I do have plenty of fuel coming into the carb. - I put a spark checker on plug one and no spark (this was after I stopped trying to start at all). - I also noticed on the dizzy that when I pulled the rotor to check it, the shaft comes up about 1/4inch (is that normal?) - Should the cap wiggle? Should I find or make a gasket to try to solidify its fitment? - Why can't I find good info on the difference between a screw down cap and a clamp type? - Can I get a screw down cap and use it? - oh. it has elec conversion as I see the Pertronix 1581-82 conversion inside -I cant ID my Prestolite dizzy. It has numbers 3 H 26 and 7008S 8S and D3 11 12700 C ( They are hard to see, I believe these are right) * I called it a night and stopped. I'm usually pretty good at researching these PCM 351 engines and getting them running, but I haven't managed to get this one right yet. I though I'd ask the experts on their thoughts before I start throwing hammers at it. * Backstory- vessel was in a barn for a few years. Obtained on a weird set of events for stupid cheap. It is a Master Craft S&S 84 model ( But I do have a 86 Fish Nautique, and an 87 Ski Nautique... Had 3 other Fish Nautiques 79,80,and 81). I saw it run great a few weeks before I got it. The day I picked it up we hit the key and she started and we turned it back off since it was on the trailer with no water. I want to believe the PO didn't mess anything up as he had no desire to use it anymore. I thought it was a good find. ...I'll let you know if it still is after a few days of tinkering. ------------- Johnnie Messer |
Replies:
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-20-2024 at 7:33am
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Since the engine started when you had the charger hooked up, probably putting 13 to 14 volts to the battery, but it has no spark with a new battery, what happens if you put the charger back on the new one to jack up the voltage available to your electronic module when cranking the engine?......it just might start. The Pertronix module doesn't like low voltage and with the engine cranking, the voltage to the coil is at it's lowest. It's usually enough to give a spark and let it start, then the alternator is putting out something in that 13 to 14 volt range and all is good. If your wiring is degraded, then the voltage may not be enough One thing you could do is read the thread in the link below and hook up a jumper from the "I" terminal of the starter solenoid to the coil positive terminal to give max voltage when starting. I think the thread might look familiar to you  http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50453&title=solenoid-relay-wiring" rel="nofollow - link The clip down cap has a gasket and if it's not in place, the cap can wiggle just like you said yours does. Also when pulling up on the rotor to get it off, you'll get movement like you describe. I'd call it more like 1/8 of an inch The rotor presses onto the advance limiter and you're lifting up on the limiter. There's a little clip in the middle of the limiter shaft, usually cleverly hidden by a little piece of felt . The clip prevents the limiter from lifting off of the flyweights. Between the 2 distributors, the cap and rotor don't interchange The flyweights and springs and limiter plate are different also, but can be swapped from one to the other. The first thing I'd do would be the "I" terminal jumper or the battery charger hookup and see if it sparks and runs. I have a friend whose boat has a Pertronix ignition and it won't spark unless the "I" terminal jumper is installed. It's not the fault of the Pertronix module......it's because of degraded wiring/connections and the "I" terminal jumper is kinda a band aid that works great. One other thing, if you have the Ignitor one module (the module is black) you can pretty easily burn up the module if you leave the key on with the engine off. If you have the red ignitor two module it has internal circuitry to prevent that.
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Posted By: jmesser
Date Posted: June-20-2024 at 6:19pm
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Keno, as always, thanks for roping me in.... I appreciate you expertise. I have some work to do. I'll touch back and let you know how it goes. ------------- Johnnie Messer |
Posted By: jmesser
Date Posted: June-26-2024 at 8:27pm
------------- Johnnie Messer |
Posted By: jmesser
Date Posted: July-14-2024 at 6:46pm
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Ok just getting back to the garage... -jumped the I terminal to the pos coil lead, no change. No crank and run. New dizzy cap, Sierra Marine with gasket, no wiggle... No change no crankand run. -new dizzy button, no change. - new coil, 1.5ohm 40k v, flamethrower from Tanis. No change. ....battery charger on start, new battery. Seems to drain the battery fast. Gonna start fire checks. I believe the timing is good, but it could have jumped. So I'll need to research how to check that with a non running engine. Wish me luck or a boat fire. ------------- Johnnie Messer |
Posted By: jmesser
Date Posted: July-14-2024 at 9:10pm
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I have a spark plug tester from Harbor Freight (light to place in line on wires). No light when I put in line on #1 cylinder I put it in line between the coil and dizzy cap and it only lit up when I let off the key from start to run (just one blink). I have a cheapo timing light, I put it on wire one jus to see if it lights up while turning the key- no light I put the timing light sensor on the coil to dizzy wire, turned the key, it hit once when I let go of the key. Did all these again with the jumper from I to the pos of the coil, no change. ....a bit stumped. Thinking I may need the dizzy module (or new dizzy).... Also going to go ahead and replace all new cables from the battery to the starter and relay to see if the engine turning over will pick up faster (wanted to do this anyway) ------------- Johnnie Messer |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: July-15-2024 at 7:25am
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I'm thinking that even with the "I" terminal jumper you have too low voltage to the coil/distributor for it to spark when cranking over, Then when you let the key return to the Run position you get a voltage increase because the starter isn't drawing lots of current anymore, the distributor wants to spark, makes that one spark while the engine is coming to a stop but can't spark after that because the engine isn't rotating. I'd check the voltage at the positive terminal of the coil while you're trying to start it, just to see how low it is Then I'd do what you're thinking and replace the cables since it sounds like you cleaned all the connections already, in your first post. I'd probably pull the starter and bench test it also, in case it's drawing lots of current without turning the engine over very well. And if you were to decide to replace the starter, an Arco 70200 PMGR starter or something that cross references to it would be good for your normal rotation engine.
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Posted By: jmesser
Date Posted: July-20-2024 at 5:30pm
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Finally
got back to the garage… BLUF-still not running Symptoms- Cranks well, has fuel in the carb. When I let off the key it tries to fire. Testing- -Placed
a timing light on cyl 1 and when I let off the key, sometimes it will light. -Placed
a timing light lead between the coil and dizzy and it lights when I let off the
key -Loosened
the dizzy and moved it left and right up to half inch, no change I don’t think. -Placed
a jumper for the I terminal on the relay to the Positive side of the
coil/ballast -Voltage at +coil without jumper=
4.99v -Voltage at +coil with jumper= 9.99v Things I’ve done- -Installed
a Perko 8511DP0USA Battery Selector Switch -Installed
new 1000cca battery -Installed
Sierra 18-5369 Marine Distributor Cap with Gasket (gasket removed wiggle) -Installed
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001GXD15Q?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details" rel="nofollow - -Installed
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00199F2WW?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details" rel="nofollow - -Installed
1/0 Gauge Battery Cable and crimped ends from battery to relay, relay to starter,
batt to eng ground, batt to Perko switch -Installed
ARCO 70200 PMGR Starter Note-
the change of the battery cables and new ARCO PMGR starter greatly changed how
the engine turns over. It is really fast and much much quieter. Question-
do you think the Pertronix 1581-82 conversion that came with the boat
has failed? Could the low voltage on cables caused the Pertonix module to fail? Could the ignition switch be the problem at all?
I
appreciate all your help and comments greatly! ------------- Johnnie Messer |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: July-21-2024 at 1:46pm
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It still seems like it wants to fire when you let go of the key and voltage comes up, but here's a link to a whole bunch of stuff about testing a Pertronix module http://www.google.com/search?q=testing+a+pertronix+module&oq=testing+a+pertronix+module&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIICAEQABgWGB4yDQgCEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyDQgDEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyDQgEEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyCggFEAAYgAQYogTSAQkxMzkzMWowajSoAgCwAgE&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - link Is it the black module or the red one? The 9.99 volts that you measured, is that while the engine is cranking ?
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Posted By: jmesser
Date Posted: July-21-2024 at 4:04pm
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Yes sir, voltage at coil was tested while cranking. It is the BLACK module Had a second hand and pulled a plug, laid it on a ground while she cranked it and I had a nice blue spark at the moment the key was let off. Going through the testing of the module videos this afternoon. I'll let you know what I see. ------------- Johnnie Messer |
Posted By: jmesser
Date Posted: July-21-2024 at 8:23pm
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Brainstorming here- -I think I ruled out the switch as a problem (please see my
diagram on voltages and let me know if I am wrong) - Per a prior post suggestion, I did put a jump wire from
batt pos to the coil pos while cranking to see if it would run, no change. -My brain is fried form thinking on this. Please let me know
if the voltages I noted are concerning or normal. I am leaning toward the electronic
conversion module being bad. I have the Pertronix
1581-82. If I decide to order a new
one, would it be better to order the 91581LS per this link? I think I am
reading the 91581LS would be a better option than replacing the one I have with
the same. https://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50237&KW=points+conversion&PID=601329&title=1999-carb-240-hp-no-spark#601329" rel="nofollow - https://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50237&KW=points+conversion&PID=601329&title=1999-carb-240-hp-no-spark#601329 ) I believe I read somewhere
the red module is protected from leaving the key on whereas the black one is
not. ------------- Johnnie Messer |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: July-22-2024 at 8:14am
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If you're getting a new module, the one you mention (91581LS) is a good choice. No magnet ring to install, it's cheaper and it's protected from frying itself if the key id left in the Run position accidentally.
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Posted By: jmesser
Date Posted: September-07-2024 at 7:19pm
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She's alive! https://www.youtube.com/shorts/iaNBpCG29To I appreciate it when folks figure out a fix and follow to tell everyone, so here I am...Hope I have helped someone reading along... After all the troubleshooting, the problem was the "Black Elec Module". I replaced with the Pertronix 91581LS (Red module with circuit protection) and she hit with a turn of the key. The thing that threw me off was I rcvd the troubleshooting document from Pertronix and the old one tested good (if anyone wants the document, send me your email and I'll shoot it to you). ... So after everything I already did, I just bought one to make sure, and Vroom!... Things I've learned this go around- -Appreciate KENO for responding and keeping me from initiating an insurance scam -Trust your instincts first. I had a feeling from the start that the elec unit was the problem, but "overthunk" it. -New battery cables and PGMR Starter make it spin fast and quiet! (and make me feel better) -I fell better having a new Flamethrower coil -Electronic conversion is ridiculously easy, I will never have points again ------------- Johnnie Messer |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-09-2024 at 3:23pm
You get one of these  Good looking boat, fiberglass stringers, a bunch of new parts, no insurance investigators chasing you around, you should be good for a while.
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