A 351w (stroker?) from scratch...
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5635
Printed Date: November-21-2024 at 11:48pm
Topic: A 351w (stroker?) from scratch...
Posted By: JoeinNY
Subject: A 351w (stroker?) from scratch...
Date Posted: January-30-2007 at 4:47pm
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Well, the 67 mustang looks awefully sad without its' 302 and the engine that came in the '83 2001 is a total loss due to someone deciding to mix a full floating rod into a set of pressed in rods during a rebuild (my condolences to the previous owner Jhatem), so its time for me to start ordering parts for a replacement.
I am going to lay out what I am thinking so far, feel free to tell me if you think I am making a mistake or might be better served going another way. The budget on this build is not unlimited but I don't plan on leaving any engine upgrades to be done later either. My plan is to build standard rotation and to eventually move to the newer PCM transmission to get the prop turning the right direction. I am buying a standard block machined .030 over ready to a$$emble (only thing special is the request for bra$$ freeze plugs and a piston to wall clearance of .030 to .045 due to the marine use)... Going with an Eagle Crank, part number 103513850 basically a stock cast 351 crank with the stroke increased to 3.85. Planning on eagle full floating connecting rods SIR5956FB (std 351W length of 5.956) This combo combined with some standard 302 height keith black hypereutectic pistons (part number tbd) is intended to give me a displacement of 393 cu. I am intending to stay away from forged components if at all possible to allow the money to go else where in the build, the manufacturer claims the above parts are good for up to 500hp, and I plan to be closer to 400hp. For heads I am thinking of some iron flow heads from http://www.tristatecylinderhead.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=43 - iron flow heads 190cc int/75cc exh runners, 2.02 int/1.60 exh valves, 60 cc combustion chanber, with the appropriate stainless valves, springs, guideplates, and 3/8 inch studs. Cam and lifters- because I would like to use a full synthetic and am a little gunshy over wiping out flat tappet cam lobes (again) I am set on using a hyd roller setup. The Comp Cams Retrofit Hyd. Roller and Lifter kit that I am leaning toward is 212/218 int/exh duration, .513/.513 int/exh lift with stock 1.6:1 ratio Rockers seperation is 110 degrees. Heads to be topped off with some Scorpion Rollers, anyone have any recommendations on pushrods? My hopes for this setup is set it up with a prop that will allow it to reach about 5200 rpm. I will specify pistons to get about a 9.4 to 9.6 compression ratio. I am hoping for maybe 375hp? Any ideas if the stock carb will get me there? (with jets/adjustment of course)? I am thinking of going with a Edelbrock performer (or he equiv. performance products unit) as opposed to something more radical like an air gap so I can keep my power out of the hole and idle quality.. (not to mention my engine cover and a decent sized arrestor) Mistake? Opinions on stock oil pump vs high volume for this appplication? I am planning to keep the stock PCM manifolds at this point as I would rather have a tower than a set of HiTeks this summer, Big mistake? I am thinking a performance distributors DUI for simplicity... Need to source an alternator and a starter since I am switching directions suggestions? Last and hopefully least I need to get the two water pumps to work correctly in the opposite direction. Any opinions? -Joe. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Replies:
Posted By: Tim D
Date Posted: January-30-2007 at 5:21pm
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I've got a melling oil pump in mine, it pegs out my 80 psi gauge. Also, my cuz who built the motor for me knocked a hole out near the distributor, he said it was a trick to increase oil flow. Be sure to get some ARP bolts. ------------- Tim D |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: January-30-2007 at 5:41pm
Joe, I was hoping to be the first with a 393, but it appears you beat me to it. Should be a fun build. At first glance, here are a few comments:
Ive heard mixed reviews of the Eagle cranks. Some love them, some hate them. I have heard mostly good things about Scat, though.
Id say thats a pretty mild cam for 393ci. Call cam research and see what they recommend for a 393 designed to spin up to 5200. I a$$ume that kit includes the tie-bar roller lifters? Thats not a cheap item!
Im not familiar with those particular heads, but 375-400 should be about right, maybe a little more.
I doubt it. Do a google search for a carb CFM calculator, but I am almost positive you'll need a 750.
I think so. I would go with a more aggressive dual plane like a Performer RPM or Weiand Stealth. Im running a Stealth on my 351 along with a 2500-5200 RPM cam and have zero idle issues (@600RPM) and have a tremendous holeshot. That 393 will want to breath more than the standard Performer will allow.
Not sure- Ill let you know this spring/summer 
From the limited knowledge we have about the Hiteks, they sound like they really improve the breathing. However, theres no harm in waiting a year since you already have the stock cast irons on hand.
I love my DUI and wouldnt go any other way. Keep us updated as you start the build! ------------- |
JoeinNY wrote:Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: January-30-2007 at 5:48pm
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Im thinking 780 holley, 600 or 650 a little to small, only my opinion, works beautifully on 383 cubes, you dont want to starve the engine for air ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: Munday
Date Posted: January-30-2007 at 8:50pm
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The raw water pump should be reversable.
The carb will be easy upgrade if you feel its needed later. Oil pump 10lbs. per 1,000 rpm any more is just heating the oil,and that might be to much with roller motor. I've had good/bad experience with floating rods one rolloc gets away and ruins a nice motor. Might want to look at mini hi torque starters since your gonna have to buy a new one. Good distributor Just a thought could you serpentine the belt and use the water pump you have? Sounds like a nice combo,if it leaves like your video and runs out extra thats a +/+ Good luck Munday |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: January-31-2007 at 8:50am
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One note, (my opinion) I never use high volume oil pumps, a nice tight rebuild you have more than enough oil flowing through the system, they rob hp, not much but they do, munday's right, high volume oil pumps also have the tendency to heat the oil also ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: January-31-2007 at 10:41am
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I'm not a big fan of the4 high volume pump either they usually have to much pressure and just blow the oil off the journal's.
For push rods I was looking at comp cam's with a .060" wall for mine they have a different tip to work well with the roller rockers too. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: January-31-2007 at 5:03pm
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I am definitely willing to take any advice on eagle vs. scat for the crank/rods. I was originally looking at Scat until one of the sites that sells them had a big section on reasons the snout of a crank would break off, all those reasons had to do with other parts of course but it was the first I had seen that type of failure and it put a little fear into me that a Scat supplier would spend that much time explaining it. I too have heard second hand bad experiences about eagle although none of those are recent, anyone want to share horror stories.
The cam and lifter kit from comp cams is with tie bar roller lifters, includes cam, lifters, timing gears, and chain for 490 from summit. It’s basically the mildest form of their roller retrofits that they offer standard. I can definitely give cam research a call and see what they can do with a tie bar roller kit. Definitely not a cheap item. This boat when propped correctly is hopefully going to spend a lot of time between 1600 and 2100 rpm wakeboarding and teaching beginners. I think if I have the right torque I will be able to eventually push a prop that will have me at 1800 rpm for 20 mph hopefully saving some gas for that near full throttle run back home as the sun is setting, I am willing to give up a few mph on the top end so as to not risk any low end deficiency, maybe I don’t have to? Due to the expense and the effect it’s going to have on performance picking the right cam is definitely a worry. The flow numbers tristate is providing for their heads are a big improvement over most of the ported gt40p numbers I have seen claimed. I don’t think they will hold the engine back. The carb calculators I found on the internet come up with 593 cfm requirement for a 393 cu in at 5200 and 100% volumetric efficiency, lower as the efficiency goes down. Very borderline, might try and get away with the stock. I am not concerned about the money here but throttle response is important, I don’t want the perfect pa$$ to do a bunch of hunting. Probably wait and upgrade as long as I don’t have to put to much time and effort into the stock carb. Do the Weiland stealth or Performer RPM height manifolds fit under a stock 2001 cover, if so with what arrestor (source?)? I tend to agree with everyone calling for a standard volume oil pump, the only reason I can justify for a higher volume part is to limit the damage if a lifter collapses or something like that but I think it would be better to just install an oil pressure alarm and tell my less observant drivers that they should turn the engine off if they hear any numbers. I had a lifter collapse this year while I was boarding the girl driving at the time didn’t notice the loss of pressure, lord knows how much of my set the pressure was low on. That’s another reason I don’t want this thing to get too insane, I let a lot of people drive my boats… ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: January-31-2007 at 6:35pm
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Any reasons not to start with a true roller-cam block from the boneyard instead of the retrofit? ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: January-31-2007 at 7:16pm
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Havent been able to find one locally or for a reasonable price online anyone got a source? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: February-01-2007 at 8:26am
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I didnt mean that Cam Research was the place to get the tie-bar lifters- I doubt they have an item like that. Id consult them for the cam, though.
Its probably cheaper to start with a roller block or to convert using a 302 spyder retainer. Ive read that the tie-bar lifters are a better solution though- anyone hear or know any different? With all the torque that 393 will make, I dont think you will have to compromise much on a cam. The .490/.490, 218/222 cam I have supposedly has a powerband of 2500-5200, but it doesnt hurt for power anywhere. I havent really loaded the boat down, but youre a few hundred pounds lighter to start with. Not sure if the Stealth or Performer RPM will fit under your motorbox... Id check and see how much clearance you have now. Theyre about 1" taller than the regular Performer (which is ~1.5" taller than stock). There are low profile arrestors out there, but they can be tricky to find depending on which fittings you need. ------------- |
Posted By: Munday
Date Posted: February-01-2007 at 8:35am
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I did the lifter grind last year Joe so I understand your concern.
Good Luck Munday |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: February-01-2007 at 8:38am
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I decided I would rather pay the money on the tie bar set than drill holes in the valley for the 302 spider conversion, have seen it done and it looked sketchy to me. Wouldnt't mind finding a roller block, but your talking about a pretty short window of trucks that had 351w rollers, I think 94-97 and the ones I found wanted to sell me the whole engine not just the block.
I can't much checking for clearance on my boat now, it has the 302 out of my 67 and that didnt fit under the original cover because of the way the rwp was mounted so I had to construct a big plywood box to go over it last season. Would rather not find out too late that I need to make modifications to get it to fit... -Joe. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: reidp
Date Posted: February-01-2007 at 9:25pm
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TRBenj, Excellent play by play comments to which I can add very little. So Joe, half joking but completely serious at the same time, why stop at 393 and not just go for the 427 stroker kit? Does it cost any more? I know PAW and some others offer a complete short block.
Do you really have to spin it automotive direction? Even eventually moving to the new PCM to change the prop direction back to RH, the boat will still more than likely list. Anyone with a late model Std Rot engine boat should be able to attest to a slight starboard list with one aboard. Now add 100 more ft.lbs. of twist and you might do barrel rolls. You can get the entire package you're after in the RR setup. Just my take. Don't know if I missed it, but I'm somewhat certain that your alternator is bi-directional if it's a marine alt a$$uming you do go standard rot, and your local starter rebuilder can convert your starter. ------------- ReidP /diaries/details.asp?ID=231&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975 - 1973 Mustang |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: February-02-2007 at 12:20am
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The 427 is a little more cash because of the need to clearance the bottom of the cylinders for the rods and the 393 only uses a special crank, the rods are std 351 rods and the pistons are std 302 pistons which gives a few more options in keeping it towards the sane end of my checkbook. A 427 will get you into a special piston where the bottom oil ring intersects the pin, and you get down farther into the cylinders where it is common that the cylinders start to become more oval shaped, both leading you to more oil consumption and the greater angles required do start to effect efficiency and engine life so I think 393 is about all I would feel comfortable with. Anyone out there with a 427 disagree?
I have a couple issues with going reverse rotation. The first is I don't know of anyone that grinds a stoker crank in the reverse direction, chances are it wouldnt really effect the main bearing life that the microfinish on the crank was a little rougher in the direction of rotation but its a possibility i have heard many swear to so its a risk. Second I don't know of a reverse rotation roller cam set up available, and its the one thing about my 302 (which i have spent more money on that I plan to spend on this build) that I would like to change. Anyone know of someone with reverse rot roller blanks they would grive for me? Third and definitely least because there are other options you can't order a performance distributors dui unit in reverse rotation for a 351 so I would need to come up with a gear and install it. The engine turning the right way would be nice, save a few parts and definitely help with the lean when I am in there by myself so if someone has a source for the reverse polished crank and roller cam/rocker retrofit set up I definitely would keep it correct. I think you are completely right on the alternator and starter, the fan will be backwards on the alternator but it doesnt really matter if it pushing air in or pulling it through, and I will definitely ask the local rebuilder about turning that starter around. I dont think I would buy a short block from anyone that I didn't personally know and couldnt drive over to with problems. Both of my CC's came to me cheap because they needed new engines less than a year after PO's paid to have rebuilt engines installed. In tearing them both down I found a$$embly errors, one had multiple problems, some pistons in backwards, connecting rods not properly resized, etc and one had only one error but it was terminal, its just turned me off to trusting rebuilts purchased a$$embled. Plus I own the tools and chicks dig watching an engine a$$embled from scratch.. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: February-02-2007 at 8:59am
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Joe, you make valid arguments for the 393- I was considering the same build for exactly the same reasons. It may be worth looking into a 408, though. It fairly common, so those 15 extra cubes may come fairly cheap. It wouldnt be as problematic as a 427, though the 393 is probably a safer bet.
Hopefully the Boat Dr. will chime in regarding the crank. He has a standard rotation crank installed in his 331 RR stroker. No clue about the RR roller cam blanks- considering how few sources there are for reverse rotation cams, rollers may be pretty tough to find. The DUI shouldnt be a concern though- I believe someone here has installed their original dist gear successfully in a RR motor. Edit: check http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3338&TPN=3 - this thread , the post by klinger_2003 3/4 the way down the page. ------------- |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: February-02-2007 at 7:06pm
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Joeinnewyork, Built a 331 stroker,Eagle , for my 64 am. skier last year.Stayed w/r.rotation,just use the correct rear main seal.Would have built a 393 but I was limited to the width of the motor box,351 is too wide. Before you go the 351 route think about the 331 or the 347 cheaper on the wallet and you won't gain any weight.I am making 350 HP and about400 lb.ft. torque.The 331 was a wise move on my part,but to each his own.................boat dr ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: February-04-2007 at 4:30pm
Doc, the 2001 this engine is destined for came with a 351. The 302 is from his Mustang. ------------- |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: February-05-2007 at 7:29pm
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TRBenj, tried real hard to find a roller set up for my stroker,was already drilled for it,but to no avail.Cam Research only had a few R/R blanks left.Going to be hard to find, but if found let me know...
My buddy at Ford Racing say's "If 5500 is the max why waste the time and money for the little bit of heat and friction these rollers will give you. The same goes for the roller rockers,spend your money on the stroker,ain't no substitute for cubes" boat dr ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: February-05-2007 at 7:58pm
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who's got some experience with the 302 to 347 stroker.... any good? ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: reidp
Date Posted: February-05-2007 at 8:46pm
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While I don't have actual experience, in an auto it's becoming the most popular stroker since the 383 Chevy. So I don't know why it wouldn't be the hot ticket in a boat for a 302 upgrade. I certainly want one. ------------- ReidP /diaries/details.asp?ID=231&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975 - 1973 Mustang |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: February-05-2007 at 11:09pm
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Eric, from what i learned searching about, the 347 has oil control ring issues. The rod length places the wrist pin dead center of the o/c ring.Eagle says they have solved the problem by widening the ring groove and adding a steel ring below the expander ring.
For longivity reasons i chose not to go the 347 route.If i do my math right thats only a 2% increase in cubic in. The HP and Torque #'s were almost the same, not enough to rebuild after 500 hrs..................boat dr ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: February-13-2007 at 11:35am
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Thanks for all the thought and info so far, I am still going over the scenarios based on sources for parts and whats going to be the best mix of performance and reliablity. I am a little sidetracked with trying to purchase some serious garage space that would help out a great deal with this project, not to mention the ungoing 67 mustang...
-Joe. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-09-2007 at 4:53pm
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Well there is a 393 stroker kit on the way from www.fordstrokers.com, forged probe full floating pistons (19.3cc dish), forged connecting rods with arp bolts, and cast Coast High performance crank, perfect circle file fit moly rings, and clevite 77 bearings. No turning back now, if it warms up she aught to be broken in by green lake.
-Joe. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: April-09-2007 at 5:15pm
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kewl. Did you have them open up the ring gap to mimic marine specs? ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-09-2007 at 5:22pm
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They are file fit so I will have to gap them myself, once the pistons arrive I can have the final honing done on the cylinders to get the piston to wall clearances set correctly as well. Doing a little math it looks like the stroker kit at 1025 shipped is going to be the cheap part of this operation, but hopefully it ends up pretty badass.. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: April-09-2007 at 5:56pm
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Std or Rev rotation? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-09-2007 at 7:33pm
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Std Rotation mostly due to lack of reverse cam choices, which means a transmission switch is in the future as well. In the interim at least I already have a couple props for std rotation engines... ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-10-2007 at 2:51pm
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More parts on thier way today,
http://www.tristatecylinderhead.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=41&products_id=43 - 2 completely assembled cylinder heads from tristate http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CCA%2D35%2D306%2D8&autoview=sku - Comp cams Hydraulic Roller Camshaft http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CCA%2D8931%2D16&autoview=sku - Comp Cams Tie Bar Retrofit Roller Rockers and a http://www.performancedistributors.com/marinedui.htm - Performance Distributors DUI M35820 That will be curved to match and run on pump gas. I didn't pay the summit price on the lifters but even so they are going to run almost 500 with the shipping, heads are about 800 with shipping, cam about 275 with shipping, DUI about 400 with shipping. The cam is listed as a blower cam for a 5.0, but after about an hour on the phone with comp cams it is what they recommend, based on the flow numbers from the heads the intake manifold, the exhaust, compression ratio, and displacement. He actually started with a little higher lift but I wanted to stay under the .550 recommended by tristate for thier springs. Still need to order the pre-prepped block once I measure up the pistons, need a gasket set, an ARP bolt set, a timing set, an oil pump, need roller rockers, pushrods, harmonic balancer, flex plate, weiland stealth intake, have the starter reversed, and most likely find a larger (750cfm) carb. I have left over from the last motor project a new marine ciculating pump, a new rwp, a bunch of cheap valve covers, etc Planning to reuse the alternator, fuel pump, flywheel and some brackets from the previous engine.. Will provide further updates/pictures as things are ordered/arrive/and are assembled... Don't anyone add up the cost and tell me I don't want to know .. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-10-2007 at 3:20pm
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Joe, Im not familiar with those heads. They dont appear to be listed in this http://www.allfordmustangs.com/Detailed/630.shtml - flow chart - whats the story behind them? The flow numbers are certainly impressive. In regards to valve covers, be careful- I believe the stud mounted RR's require more clearance than the pedestals. Im curious if tall VC's would clear PCM style exhaust manifolds- which style will you be running?
I assume youre going to run the wooden motorbox for now? I dont think the Stealth will fit under the stock box without getting creative. I believe you would increase clearance when you go to the 1.23 tranny due to the reduced mounting angle though. I am interested to hear what you do with the carb- my 302 needs a marine unit, so Im considering swapping the 600cfm onto it and putting a larger carb on my 351 when the time comes. Did you ever put a call in to Cam Research? ------------- |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-10-2007 at 3:47pm
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double post ------------- |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-10-2007 at 4:13pm
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The heads are 60cc combustion chamber, 75cc exhaust runner, 190cc intake runner.
Intake Valve Test @ 28” of Water .100 .200 .300 .400 .500 .600 .700 70 148 203 255 269 277 282 Exhaust Valve Test @ 28” of Water .100 .200 .300 .400 .500 .600 .700 58 118 152 179 188 192 198 I am sure they are chinese cast iron copies of one of the better known heads, but they are from tristate whom I bought my reworked gt40p heads from (excellent service and machining) and at 710 complete with double springs and stainless valves (plus shipping) the price is right. The flow numbers they quote (and guarantee) would put them in the top 5 or 6 on the chart you linked to, how they do in the intangible areas like swirl and quench I will have to find out. Could have went with aluminum heads from tristate for not much more but I was scared of corrosion and warping, who knows what alloy they are using in china these days. I am planning to reuse my stock PCM manifolds if they hold water, I will hit them with the die grinder and gasket match the ports. When I checked last year they looked like they would just clear the tall edelbrock covers I have on the 302 if I have to go that way. I originally wanted this motor to look fairly stock, but the intake, carb, and ignition will be hard to hide, maybe I will just polish it out like the 302. I will run the wooden cover if I need to, I dont think I can get away with an intake less than a stealth or a performer rpm minimum with this setup or I am going to choke it off. I will actually miss the great big flat box when it goes cant beat it as a workspace to set up the boots on skis/boards, its a great stand to dive in from, and it makes a decent beer/card table.. if only it wasnt so fugly.. couldn't even find the right color carpet the day I built it. I have been eyeing the 750 cfm marine barry grant demon cause it looks so badass, but its almost twice as much as an 750 cfm edelbrock and with the edelbrock I know what I am doing. If the boat dr wants to trade his 750cfm holley for my 600 cfm holley and a couple bucks then I wouldnt mind going that way. I did not talk to Cam Research because I knew I would not be buying a cam from them since I was set on either a comp or crane set of aftermarket rollers, after calling both the guy from comp cams impressed me more. However the factory direct price on the cam was about 100 more than the summit price, the factory price on the hydralic rollers was 10 bucks cheaper than summit but still 80 more than they could be found on ebay for. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: April-11-2007 at 8:03pm
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Joe, stay away from the edelbrock carb, had some bad experiences in the past with them, you really cant fine tune them ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-12-2007 at 8:19am
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Thanks for the comment Eric, I have an edelbrock on my 302 now so I have already bought the kits with the jets/rods/springs etc needed to adjust the thing, I actually prefer them a bit to the holley because I am more familiar with them but am not afraid to go either way. I will probably go with whatever I can find used.
Now for the real question eric, whats the chance that my velvet drive is going to make it through the summer without changes if I let this thing make the 450-475 horsepower that this engine might be capable of... ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: April-12-2007 at 8:53am
reality check needed at register 2 ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: April-12-2007 at 9:12am
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Joe, if your not drastically re-propping you wont have a problem.. do you know what condition the trans is in now?
when your ready I'll hook you up with the right parts for the trans and even may give away a trade secret or two ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-12-2007 at 9:32am
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E tu Gottaski?
http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/0305_mmwicked/ http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/0305_mmwicked/ - 393 tech article It is only my second hi-po ford marine build here but it is not my second engine build by long shot. I have worked with basically the same parts suppliers as they did in the above article, I left a little on the table in terms of heads and headers (for now anyway on the headers although the porting on my pcms is starting to look good), went a little higher in compression, and had the cam profile adjusted slightly to compensate for those factors and my concern about concentrating on too much on the high end. I really don't know how much horsepower this will make when done and I sure dont plan to dyno it, but I am pretty sure horsepower will be somewhere between more than enough and too much. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-12-2007 at 9:47am
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Eric,
I haven't touched that transmission yet but it was solid and dry last year, no leaks no slipping, no burned fluid. I have two other velvet drives that are older (late sixties) in working order (one i still need to change the rear seal on) so I figure worst case I spend a few hours and switch it out for one of them mid season, then take it easy until I get the failed one rebuilt. Long term plan is to build one velvet drive stout for the 67 mustang, and sell/trade the two others to help finance buying and building a pcm for the 83 SN. I am hoping not to reprop too extreme this year because after I switch rotation anything bought this year will have to work on the mustang which already has an OJ XMP 13x11.5 and will inherit the ACME 471 that is currently on the SN, I suppose it could use a higher pitch prop for "fuel economy" purposes... -Joe. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: April-12-2007 at 10:11am
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Joe , one shouldn't regurg an article regarding a build with canfield heads and extrapolate what unremarkabe iron heads would do. You didn't mention zero-decking the block and your CR is unremarkable I've built engines also, and keep track of the 392 and its potential, and I still maintain given your info, you are optimistic by about 100 hp. Now if you were using Jegs/Kaase CV or afr heads, and planned to spin 5500-6k, I wouldn't dispute. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-12-2007 at 11:42am
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I will spin more likely 5200-5400 if I have my way but the full roller valve train and balanced mostly forged rotating assembly will be more than capable of 5500 - 6000 if I want to go that way, I didn't make a horsepower prediction just what it might be capable off, the limits are as I see it going to be intake and exhaust related not in the heads.
When I have flow numbers I feel fairly comfortable extrapolating the difference the heads might make, since I am an engineer who has designed heads and valve trains for reciprocating compressors and have been paid to do such extrapolations I don't can't see why I would stop now. As for compression, I didnt state it was remarkable just higher than the engine tested in the article. Why would I zero deck the block when I had to order dish pistions to keep the CR down to 10? Seriously I don't know what horsepower its going to make, the heads are definitely cheap but from a supplier I trust and thier flow numbers are better than an AFR 185 head, I have already stated I don't know how they will do in terms of swirl and quench so how far I may be able to bump the timing forward on 93 octane could be effected easily to the tune of 50-100 horsepower over the canfield heads which I think are overkill for the N/A 393 certainly at inboard boat rpms, only with nitrous or a blower would I consider the canfield heads with thier poor intake/exhaust ratio ideal,they are leaving bottom mid range torque on the table with those heads. Obviously I could buy as much horsepower as I want for this boat and could build the exact engine someone else has, but whats the fun in that if it can be done different, cheaper, etc there is where the fun is for me. I was actually shooting for 375-400 horsepower originally but the research I have done all points closer to 450. Either way the boat is not likely to break 53mpg, so you let me have my dilusions and I will let you have yours... ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: April-12-2007 at 12:53pm
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Well the roller cam is a big plus but given that rpm there's nothing in the shopping list to indicate why this engine will exceed the power of a BBC 454 with rectangle ports and canted valves at the same rpm. (425)
You will need well over 450 ft-lbs maintained over 5k , I just don't see it. But regarding zero-decking, you answered your own question.
Well, good luck with the build, hope it works out well. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: MaddMarxx
Date Posted: April-12-2007 at 10:52pm
| Joe, check out (Doug Herbert Performance)they have great prices on roller lifters! He is the original automotive roller cam designer! |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-13-2007 at 9:41am
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Mark have you got a specific link to which roller lifters you are refering to? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: MaddMarxx
Date Posted: April-13-2007 at 11:06am
| joe...I suck at the link posting thing but when Blondie gets home I will get her to help me with it. I was looking at the hydraulic roller lifters and cam, I have a part# that I wrote down(HERTFV) vertical bar (209.99) but I have to check and see if that is right!! |
Posted By: Munday
Date Posted: April-15-2007 at 12:53pm
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Well if it leaves 100 c.i. bigger than your video its gonna be fun I bet!!Thats the good part of motor builds is you get to do it your way,Good luck Joe
Munday |
Posted By: reidp
Date Posted: April-15-2007 at 8:53pm
Here's MY 393 (390+.020") which I just picked up from Holman Moody Friday afternoon. It's off to the painters tomorrow for some vintage INTERCEPTOR green paint. The painters are actually me and buddies at the local wooden boat shop who have the color custom mixed since you can't buy it anymore. This 390 was born in '63 as a 300HP engine with high-for-a-marine engine 9.6 compression. It's now up to an honest 10.3 according to Silvolite, who provided the forged flat tops. HM reground the cam to a more aggressive .480" lift pattern and we went with the Edelbrock Perf RPM intake shown and are hoping for maybe 340-350 solid HP. They would dyno it, but guess what,... the standard dyno won't do a rev rot engine.
Besides being excited about getting this engine back in our '63 Classic in the coming weeks, I just wanted to comment on Joe's 393 stroker. Most likely like Joe, I subscribe to several Ford mags and have yet to see one tested that didn't run at least into the 400-425HP range, with similar parts. While like Tim, I'm not too familiar with the heads either, but specs are specs. The FRPP crate 392 is a 430HP/450lb.ft. engine, but it's got a bit more cam (.560"+, 232-240 dur), a single plane intake and rated with headers. So back-tracking a bit Joe, I'll bet you're conservatively accurate in your 375-400 guess, or 400-425 if rated by GM (intended sarcasm). And I'd say you're somewhat conservative in your speed guestimation as well, we hope. Did you mention yet if it's coming to Green Lske with you? ------------- ReidP /diaries/details.asp?ID=231&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975 - 1973 Mustang |
Posted By: jbear
Date Posted: April-15-2007 at 9:03pm
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Well...I sure have no idea what-so-ever what you are talking about Reid but....I sure do know a beautiful engine when I see one.
john ------------- "Loud pipes save lives" AdamT sez "I'm Canadian and a beaver lover myself"... |
Posted By: JMurph
Date Posted: April-15-2007 at 9:07pm
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Reid,
The 390 (393) looks awesome. I hope it runs as well as it looks. I'm sure it will. You post these things in the most obscure locations. I was waiting to see a picture of this motor, but I didn't think that I would have to be looking under a 351 Stroker thread to find it. Good luck with the painter and get that thing back in the boat. Summer is coming. -JMurph ------------- |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-16-2007 at 10:42am
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That there is a lot of brand new reverse rotation classic motor. Maybe I can get a ride in that 63 Classic somewhere around the 19th -26th of May when I am in the neighborhood. Bummer on the lack of reverse rotation dyno I thought about temporarily putting my 393 into one of the broncos when I am done with it because I have access to a friends portable chassis dyno, but its too much work and delay to justify just for bragging rights. I don't think using it for tuning with the wrong manifolds and wrong load would be ideal either.
As a parts update I decided to go with scorpion 1.6 billet roller rockers again (201 shipped of ebay). I also got a 750cfm Holley Marine Carb on ebay that the guy swears was only used for 10 mins and then removed and fully drained. 225 shipped, so thats going to be the carb, now whats this I hear about replacing metering blocks or something of the like on these things for adjustablitly, and what the hecks a power valve.. other than a fully mechanical 2 barrel circle track model we use on the 67 toyota landcruiser I am a complete Holley newby. The plan is to have the new motor in the boat and broken in before Green lake, but with a new foot of snow on the ground here today nothing seems to be going to plan. I got the wrong stroker kit in the mail Friday, instead of the cast crank, forged rods and pistons 393 kit they sent out a fully forged 408 kit, I wouldn't have been against keeping it but they had already noticed the error and called to say the correct kit is on the way. I need it to get the machine shop going on the final honing. If I get the block and all the parts by the end of April, it could be in the boat for my vacation in May although my friends hate it when I bring an "untested" boat on vacation. I dunno about the speed estimation either but I am sure it will be fast enough for its primary use which is heavy sking is wakeboarding. The 2001 hull just doesn't strike me as fast with a lot of fins, a lot of keel. Still snowing.. Joe. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-16-2007 at 11:26pm
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18 inches of very heavy snow so far today. The heads came in the mail today, they are pretty serious heads, about 5 minutes with a die grinder and they will be ready to go, pictures will follow. The exhaust ports are huge, I will need to do some serious material removal on the pcms or reconsider the hytecs... ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: April-17-2007 at 9:53am
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you dont need a ski boat Joe, you need one of those ski tracks, your probably still breakin ice up there in July ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-18-2007 at 4:10pm
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The snow is melting, and we are looking at 60's and sunny this weekend, usually would have two docks in the water by now with at least a fishing boat in a hoist maybe in a couple weeks.
Engine build update, ended up keeping the fully forged 408 kit because they hadn't actually shipped the 393 kit and the machine shop was talking about a rapidly closing window of time after which I would be waiting in line after a lot of race motors. Will be very overbuilt for a normally aspirated engine but I don't want to take the chance on having to wait for it. Compression will stay the same because I am now at a 22 cc dish but its a few more cubes displacement, now I need to think about a possible cam change as a result. -Joe. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: May-25-2007 at 11:25am
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Finally picking the engine parts from the balancer today, a business trip here, a vacation there and summer will sneak up on you real quick...
-Joe. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: June-18-2007 at 1:56pm
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408 Engine build up notes.
Balancing, made a bit more difficult by using a fully forged kit with enough weight to run internally blanced and then matching with the stock flywheel and balancer. Some connecting rods required a little material removal from the small end or large end, but in the end the assembly balanced dead on, cost me about 199 dollars. I then spent about 2 hours polishing rod ends that had material removed. The grinding was in the right direction where probe recommended but I don't like to see grind marks on areas that see fatigue loading. The file fit pistion rings are a real time killer, debur, insert, measure, remove, file, debur, insert, measure, remove, file, debur, insert, measure, etc.. do that for each top ring (.022), and again for each second ring, (.018) and you have lost a solid day of your life. Bottom end clearances all plastiguaged out correctly, I did have to clearance the block a bit to clear the connecting rod bolt heads. That required the block to be cleaned again to remove the debris created, and of course a tear down. Heads arrived completely assembled from tristate, they are monster heads with good flow numbers but they needed clean up. I found some sand in the intake runners embedded in the wall from the casting in one or two spots on each head. That was going to need to be cleaned up, and there were some pretty severe points in the combustion chamber where the milling for the two valve seats intersects, these would create a hot spot and lose me a degree or two of timing, so they had to go. So I assembled the heads to the block, tested the piston to valve clearance (it was about a mile but I had to check), measured for push rods (7.70), then pulled the valves to clean up the heads. Everything was put back together and torqued down. One more clearance issue was found where I had to change one ARP main bolt for a stud because of the oil pump interfeared slightly with the bolt. When I am finally done I will list all the specs from cc ing the heads, how far below the deck the pistons set (about .010) etc, sorry I was rushing and didn't take many pictures but I have every measurement I took written down. I was rushing of course to make my dyno/tuning appointment on Friday. That didn't go so well. Engine ran well, and even strong, but we never made it to a full pull. Was just too noisy, had to shut it down, pulled the valve covers and found 4 very loose push rods. Collapsed lifter loose, 4 out of 16 brand new, top of the line Comp Cams tie bar hydraulic rollers. Guy at the dyno shop says thats funny thats the 3rd time that’s happened in 2 weeks, and they were all using comp cams lifters must be they had a bad batch. Good news is I didn't have to put this motor in the boat to find out if the lifters were going to collapse, and the dyno shop isn't going to charge me for the second session. Bad news is that session won't be until July 2nd cause he is booked till then. Comp Cams is happy to provide me with a set of new replacement lifters, which I will be selling on ebay because I will be buying a set of the crane ones which are a hundred bucks cheaper and people seem to be having better luck with lately. What a pia, gaskets aren't cheap, and I am going to need to remeasure and most likely reorder push rods. All just a matter of time and money… but its going to be awefully close for green lake…. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: June-18-2007 at 2:15pm
Everything always seems to cost a little bit more and take a little bit longer than expected, so it sounds like youre on track to me. Hopefully you'll get that thing back together and into the boat in time to pull it to GL- I cant wait to see that monster. ------------- |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: June-18-2007 at 2:24pm
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Probably a 4 day wait on the new lifters, then another 3-4 day wait on the new pushrods, should be back together and waiting for the 2nd, installed on the 4th of july, broken in over the weekend before green lake.. possible but not a lot of room for error. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: July-17-2007 at 3:58am
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Well the boat made it to green lake, minus some paint, tuning, break in, and a working alternator. Got the alternator upgraded while I was there but the poor thing lacked tuning the whole weekend. Got it just above 5000 rpms a couple times but if I pushed it past that it would drop to about 4600 till I pulled back and worst of all it was just inconsistant on the top end. Holeshot was also inconsistent some bogging, sometimes not bad.
Dropping down two springs on the vacuum secondary this afternoon helped a great deal on the top end as I was able to be consistantly 5200-5300 rpm with two of us in the boat pulling an acme 541. Still runs a tad rich needs some adjustment to the accel pump as it seems to lag a bit, and so far my intial timing is set about 8, so I might play with that a bit. Tomorrow I will call about prop recommendations to drop the top rpms about 500 or so. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: July-17-2007 at 5:09pm
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Joe, sounds like youre making good progress. That thing was an animal even without the carb being tuned. Cant wait to hear your results when you get it all dialed in! ------------- |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: July-17-2007 at 5:27pm
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Glad to see you made it back safe Tim, I was really pretty happy with it last night after just the spring change, my guess is it has more to give still but it was nice to finally see the airguides pinned. I ordered an acme 431 (13x13 LH .080 cup) from delta earlier today, hopefully that will be here thursday, don't know how much more tuning I should do before I get it on but I doubt I will be able to keep my hands off it. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: July-17-2007 at 6:06pm
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Long drive, but it was pretty uneventful. Thanks again for lending me the tools to change my spring.
Another inch of pitch should be just what you need. I say change the oil and have at it! ------------- |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: July-18-2007 at 1:22am
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Joe, hope the tuning does some good too. Seems as tho it should have been more of a runner than it was. You had 100cubes on Reid and 80 on me.And the horsepower you quoted was 400 i beleive, you should have blown reid and i out of the water.
I did not mind loosing to reid,3 out 4,that means my boat was faster than 30 others.Reid has the top speed award ,but the 64 was the hole shot king,just could not hold him in the 55 to 56 mph speed. I was topping out at 53, the mustang be quick when she start to bounce.Being beat out by Reid was OK.Again the red 64 ain't no slouch............boat dr you guys don't know what you missed at G/Lake............ ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: racintj
Date Posted: July-18-2007 at 11:27am
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Joe, what kind of ignition are you running. I tried to look back and see in the post, but I didn't find it. Reason being, on my new rebuild, i noticed that I was not getting the punch I was expecting...I found it in the ignition/distributor. A little tweaking and it's got a holeshot that's pretty stout. 0 to 40 in 6 sec. That's with a crappy stock Michigan 13 13 or OJ (I forgot). Anyway, give me your rundown on the motor again. I know you were changing cams and compression and other stuff. What did you end up with? ------------- Every day above ground is a Good day. Lakeland, FL |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: July-18-2007 at 12:23pm
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Its running a brand new dui, I have yet to power tune it, just have it set at 8 for now with 24 degrees of advance for a total of 32. Will probably try 10 degrees initial once the new prop is installed.
Finished compression ended up being 9.4 to 1 after doing more chamber material removal than originally hoped to get rid of some sharp points. The cam is relatively mild for the build because I will spend a majority of time wakeboarding at low rpms with big weight it is most likely the limiting factor on the high end. As it sits after the vacuum spring switch with the 541 prop and the 750 cfm I can pin both airguides (not that that means much) and still pull another 150-200 rpm. With the new prop and new carb that are en route I hope I will have my solid 52-53 I am shooting for and then quit screwing around with it and go skiing. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: racintj
Date Posted: July-18-2007 at 5:15pm
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I don't have the cubes you do, nor the roller cam. I still don't know your cam specs. I ended advancing on the high side of 10 degrees, with about 35 degrees total advance (took some spring changes and some grinding of weights). With your compression, heads and cam, I would imagine it will like a little more timing as well. I think that I am leaning toward the 541 as well, but I don't want to turn too many RPMs. Which prop and carb are you getting? ------------- Every day above ground is a Good day. Lakeland, FL |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: July-18-2007 at 5:41pm
Uhm, No mr speedracerman I concur try a few more, but stay less final than the stock 351W. Both higher compression and faster piston speeds due the stroking needs less advance. Given the same CR, 289/302s like 37-38 degrees, 351's 35-36 and strokers even less. As CR is increased, due to static CR and/or better VE, the flame front travels faster, resulting in less advance needed. In summary, the compression, heads, cam and stroke will require less total advance than when he started. To keep a crisp holeshot the span on the advance will need to be reduced from the typical 351 else just turning the distributer to get the best final will likely not provide enough initial for a good low rpm launch. I think Joe you are on track with your 2-degree step, to get 10/34 then analyze the results both low and high. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: July-18-2007 at 6:02pm
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The new prop is an acme 431 (13x13x.080). The carb is a 650 cfm bg marine demon mechanical secondary, I still may keep the 750 cfm holley vacuum secondary if I can get it tuned better (so far I have only switched the springs on the vacuum secondary and have a long way to go) but I borrowed a 650 cfm barry grant when I had it on the dyno and it was a considerable improvement over the untuned holley. My cam specs are 224/230 at .050 114 seperation, and .533/.544. Gottaski probably has it right on the timing most 408's that have been documented in the various mags ended up right at about 34 being optimum, thats why I started at 8 since I didn't have time to play with it yet. I am hoping not to have to get into the springs of the freshly curved dui, but it is possible I will need to reduce the mechanical advance spread to really get it to jump out of the hole.
-Joe. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: racintj
Date Posted: July-18-2007 at 8:15pm
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Gotta, thanks for the lesson in Geometrics, but I should have been a little more clear. I didn't mean more than what I have, I meant a little more than he has now...Hence, 10 degrees initial and 34 final. I do however enjoy learning more and more about these Fords each day.
Joe, I have heard good things about the BG Marine, and I am curious about your findings. I know that he knows carbs, and has done wonders for the drag racing venue. I was looking at the 431, but I don't think I can turn it hard enough. That's quite a bit of cam, did you ever get a good pull on the dyno? I would love to see HP/TQ curves. I hope you get it all sorted out, and then have a blast on the water. ------------- Every day above ground is a Good day. Lakeland, FL |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: July-23-2007 at 11:51am
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racintj,
I did get some a couple dyno pulls, and will put up the hp/torque curves when I get ambitious enough to type in all the data into excel as all I got was printouts. Hopefully we are about at the end of this process, I have installed the 650cfm mighty demon marine carb and the new acme 431 propellor (13x13, .080 cup). Out of the box with the timing at 10/34 she runs in the low 4900rpm area with me in it. I am pretty happy with that. I dont know what the actual top speed is, the perfect pass hits 47 at about 4450 rpm and then stays at 47 up till 4900 rpm, where it flirts with 47.1. Both airguides are pinned tight by 4650 rpm but are less than accurate at that point. My guess is it is breaking into the 50's slightly. My intial timing is a little low for optimal hole shot, performance distributors wants me to sent it back to be recurved I am reluctant to lose it for a couple days but dont want to mess too much with changing the settings on the mechanical secondaries and squirter shot sizes until its right, it has a great holeshot but a little inconsitant and with a small bog. I think it can be tuned to an unreal holeshot. Quick notes on the carb, there is no choke or choke tower, so far I dont miss it with no adjustments and the same set of cruddy plugs I have used throughout the break in/dyno process it still starts first bump after sitting overnight and idles as low as the damper plate will allow right off the bat. I May change my mind on this in the fall when it is colder out. It is a mechanical secondary carb, currently the secondary is coming in at about 2900rpm (32 mph). I am going to try to put that off till 37-38 mph to make slalom ski speeds more steady with the perfect pass, as it doesnt currently hold as steady as it used to. There are also settings on the perfect pass I could change to affect the damping rate but I would rather not screw around with those. So a distributor recurve, some adjustments to the secondaries, and a bunch of plug chops and jet changes, then one last oil change at 15 total hours where I will switch to synthetic and hopefully we can call it done. -joe. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: July-23-2007 at 12:13pm
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Joe, maybe i missed something one the carb thing.Most mech.secondaries are controlled by degrees of rotation aka throttle shaft.How is it that you can vary yours to a specific rpm???
My second question is in regards to propping. My 331 will pull a 13x13 OJ 4Force 5500rpm's. Stock 600 Holley, stock Mallory @ 34 degrees. Even w/.120 cup ,I only got 51mph out of 5500 rpm's. GPS speed and AutoMeter guages.Something don't sound right w/your combo. Prop now is a 12x14=5100@ 54 mph Again something don't geehaw with your numbers and the fact you say your producing 400 hp your prop would be more like a 13x 15 or larger............boat dr ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: July-23-2007 at 1:28pm
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Good morning billy,
You can change how far into the throttle rotation the secondaries come on with changes to the linkages between the two both up and down, there are also progressive and direct linkages. If it opens the secondarys later in the throttle rotation it would be good. alternately it could open them earlier and that wouldnt be bad, but to have have them opening right at slalom speeds makes it touchy to hold speed. The difference in props between yours and mine is substancial. (ignoring the fact my prop turns the wrong way) My boat came standard with an oj 13 x13, and the recommended acme replacement for that 13 x 13 is either a 540 which is (13x12) or a 542 (13 x 11.5). If I turn the 540 equiv I get about approx 1mph of speed for 100 rpms at most planing speeds although things get sketchy at the high end with that 1 to 100 relationship. The prop I have now is the 431 which is a big cnc prop like the 540 series, it dropped my rpm by 250 at 21mph (1850), 350 at 36mph (3300), and so forth till my speedos become unreliable. My horsepower curve did peak at 4700-4800 with this setup (mostly cam limited, maybe manifolds/mufflers a bit) so since I am into the low 4900's I could increase another half inch maybe if I get a lot more out of tuning an inch but then we would be affecting holeshot significantly. My gut feeling is my current acme 13x13 is about equivilent to your 12x14 in regards to speed vs mph. My motor in your boat would need a bigger prop but I have 2.5 more feet, 3 more fins, and 50 percent more weight than your skier with only 23 percent more motor displacement. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: JR_VIC
Date Posted: July-27-2007 at 2:44am
Joe, I am also running a DUI HEI style marine distributor on my 1992 351W Ford. If you have not sent your distributor back to DUI yet you may want to hold on to it for another week or so untill I get my testing done. Long story short...I recently upgraded to a Cam research camshaft, new lifters, push rods, roller rockers, and AFR heads. After initial testing the stock 600 Holley was running the rear bowl dry on the top end. I installed a new Demon 650 Marine vacum secondary carb and once up on plane the carb runs great but I have also had a small bog at tip in and seems a little rich at idle. After extensive internet searching I found a guy out in Oregon named Don Gould at FBO systems. He is a big Mopar and Ford Cobra roadster guy that specailizes in Demon carb tuning. Here is his link... http://www.4secondsflat.com/ Don states that to properly tune a Demon carb you have to first 100% dial in your timing before you can accurately adjust the carb. One of his methods he prescribes is a test to find out where your initial timing should be followed by having the distributor recurved accordingly. Without going into great details, when I performed his test on my engine I found that the initial timing at idle on MY particular engine (everyone's engine can be drastically different) needs to be 22 degrees before the mechanical advance kicks in at 2600 RPM bringing the total advance to 35 degrees where it was before. It is the initial timing that has been altered so much and not the total timing advance. I should have the distributor in the morning and hopefully will have it dropped in over the weekend. Check out his website and he has a Demon carb tuning guide you can buy for $10 which I personally found to be a great read for my limited experience tinkering with carbs. I'll share my results with you after I go out and run the boat to let you know if I am going in the right direction etc. Thanks! ------------- "That's not a Snow Cone that's my Ring!" |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: July-27-2007 at 1:36pm
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"Quick notes on the carb, there is no choke or choke tower, so far I dont miss it with no adjustments and the same set of cruddy plugs I have used throughout the break in/dyno process it still starts first bump after sitting overnight and idles as low as the damper plate will allow right off the bat. I May change my mind on this in the fall when it is colder out."
Joe, you won't need the choke. I run a jet boat with Holley with no choke, I ran it into November last year. You just use the accelerator pumps for your choke, pump the throttle a few times before starting, a few more times in the first 20 seconds and you'll hold idle OK. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: July-27-2007 at 2:07pm
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22 degrees inital will surely give hot-start problems. Consider setting so the advance comes on early and strong. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-03-2008 at 10:53pm
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Well here we go on year two of the stroker build, rebuild, and tune process.
The new Hiteks are in and fit up well 
they were custom made to clear the tall valve covers 
they were also ordered to match the exhaust ports of my aftermarket cylinder heads, in this picture you can see the difference in size between the standard head exhaust ports and the size of the ones on the hiteks 
I am also changing the cam this year and while it is apart I am using the opportunity to port match the intake manifold as last year I ran out of time so I assumed close enough. There is actually a significant amount of material that needs to be removed as seen here 
Here is the right tool to start the job 
Do not attempt to do this with a grinding stone, a good carbide bit and a die grinder is key as is eye protection. First one looking good
Second one not bad either 
The third one went ok, but things were getting sloppy on the fourth one first I let the grinder jump across the gasket surface not one but three times 
and then disaster hit 
Well that was about it for today, tomorrow I have to get the other side and go to the welding supply store... ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-08-2008 at 4:39pm
Progress report, Sunday I fixed the manifold and finished the port matching. I thought I took pictures but apparently the memory card was still in the computer and not in the camera. Yesterday I got to work installing the new cam research roller camshaft.
Here is the block stripped down to accept the new cam. 
Then we skip to after my gloved hands were no longer covered with assembly lube, which unfortunately changed my plan to take pictures of all the intermediate steps. The components here are tristate cylinder heads iron flow heads with 3/8 studs, Scorpion roller rockers, isky guide plates and pushrods, the red gunk is comp cams assembly lub. 
Last one showing the tie bar retrofit hyd. roller lifters from ford racing. 
Some progress but I have done three brake jobs in two days for friends and family and its definitely putting me behind schedule... ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: April-08-2008 at 7:07pm
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Joe, I didn't know what to say after your last post...glad you're back on track! Was the RR roller cam as big of a deal as it was with mine? I sure wish I had pulled that off.
Mighty ambitious to be doing a stringer and engine job + keeping up with life and helping friends! I am humbled. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-08-2008 at 7:18pm
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Greg, Joes stroker is a lefty- so no RH roller issues. I think he's got plans to mate a 1.23 to it for the RH prop.
Joe, Im eager to see how performance improves with the new cam, porting and Hi-teks. Should be very interesting! I love the red powdercoat on the Hiteks, by the way.  ------------- |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-08-2008 at 7:19pm
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There is no RR Roller Cam for ford either, this stroker is std rotation which involves a new transmission, new drive shaft, new mounts, and a new prop so its still a pretty big deal.
Oh and its a stringer floor carpet, engine upgrade, stereo upgrade and tower install this year 
Trying to be done by June 1st... going to take a bit of luck. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: April-08-2008 at 7:31pm
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On more levels than one, I keep thinking "10lbs in a 5lb sack"!
God's speed! ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-08-2008 at 7:32pm
I am interested myself, its too bad I will be changing so much at once esp. with the trans and prop to really know what, if anything, has the greatest effect. I got a few other enhancements ready this year too but at this point I am most worried about the floor and stringers. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-10-2008 at 1:29am
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Slowly but surely,
Manifold after the repair 
I think I have finally figured out a place for this monster to mount 
This is the last step of the porting process cleaning up the ports with an 80 grit drum using a dremal with a flex extension. 
Finished port 
I spent way more time than I care to think about prepping the manifold for paint. I have never had any luck keeping an as cast finish manifold looking good, this one was no exception lots of wiring brushing to remove oxidation, some sandblasting of crevices, and a bunch of time with acetone and a rag, then finally masking off all the gasket and interior surfaces. Used Duplicolor engine paint trying to match as close as possible the red on the mainifolds, its close but hopefully it dries closer. Going to get cold here again for a bit so this was my last day to paint for a week without turning on the heater. 
Used the light to provide enough heat to dry them to the touch before calling it a night  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: April-10-2008 at 9:20am
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i look at every picture in detail and do say that you do nice work, it seems that everything is coming along nicely ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: reidp
Date Posted: April-10-2008 at 6:55pm
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Wow! That thing is gonna be screaming at GL. Screaming "slow down Reid and wait for me!". Just kidding. It's looking super and I'm digging the black and red. ------------- ReidP /diaries/details.asp?ID=231&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975 - 1973 Mustang |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: April-10-2008 at 11:12pm
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the things you guys gotta do to keep up with a bowtie lol ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-15-2008 at 1:31am
Well not so much progress this weekend as life got in the way with the first bonfire/party weekend of the season
It was worth the setback on the project... 
but I got back into it today, here is the manifold installed 
picture of the timing cover gasket applied to the block with contact cement 
I finished putting on the timing cover and then set the valve covers, carb, dist, and a hitek on just to preview the look 
That was about it, then I spent two hours cleaning the shop and getting ready for the next phase, The coosa board for the stringers and floor came in today and there is a 351 lb series of packages halfway between here and UScomposites, weather here is finally forecasted to be in the sixties so hopefully its game on again.  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: MaddMarxx
Date Posted: April-15-2008 at 5:30am
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Joe...you go boy, how many of those girls are going to Gl with you? And what boat is that motor going in? Is that paint or powder on the hi-teks whatever it is, it looks good!
keep up the good work, and you will be smoken Reid soon! ------------- |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-15-2008 at 8:47am
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Joe, When you port match, how do you get the outline of the corresponding port. I have seen carbon paper used but wanted to know if you had a better trick. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: April-15-2008 at 8:55am
Looking good Joe...nice touch with the ARP's in the intake! 
And a bunch of cuties at your party, but I bet thay all have funny accents?!!? LOL ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-15-2008 at 11:55am
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Some people up early around here, except Mark I am guessing he was up late.
Mark.. I doubt I will be asking any of those particular young ladies along on a 13 hour drive to a weekend camping trip to look at old boats anytime soon. I suppose there are two of them, not saying which, that would be able to enjoy the event. The others, well lets just say they were wearing stillettos at the camp fire the other nite. That engine is going back in the same slow 83 Ski Nautique it came out of, and the hi-teks are powder coated which is how they were ordered, and by dumb luck they happen to match the valve covers and the rattle can painted intake manifold pretty well. Pete, I use the fairly expensive destroy a pair of gaskets in the process method. I glued (super glue) in a couple places (maybe 6 quarter inch dots each along the top) the gaskets to the heads then applied contact cement to the manifold and gasket surfaces then bolted the manifold down. Remove the manifold after dry and hopefully the gasktes are now on the intake in the right spot. After that I just used a black sharpie to mark the area to be removed and then removed the gasket. After when I installed it I contact cemented the gaskets to the heads then installed the manifold with a thin layer of rtv around the water passages. I left the gaskets about a 64th smaller than the ports on the head side so if its off a bit I dont have any ledges. Its a fairly amatuer job but there was soo much material removed it can't hurt. The wieand manifold has large runners that were purposefully restricted at the ports to allow for port matching. Usually it takes a lot of work to maintain the same width and height of the port for an inch an a half into the manifold, in this case the runner opened up by itself right beyond the ports so it was a lot less material to remove. Greg, The arp's are a hold over from last year, none of those girls have an accent.. but they would be hotter if they did.. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: April-15-2008 at 12:30pm
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heck with the stroker, tell us about the bonfire lol, had to scroll past the pics this morning....it was a wife thing ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-15-2008 at 1:27pm
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Just your standard lakefront pallet fire, 22 hardwood pallets burned 3-4 at a time. As for the rest what happens at the bonfire, stays at the bonfire. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: April-15-2008 at 5:38pm
I bet I'd think they have an accent!
------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-15-2008 at 5:44pm
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I can only call them as I hear em... ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: April-15-2008 at 5:55pm
You know I'm messing with you right? You might not even be able to follow me?!!? LOL On more than 1 occasion, I've been asked to stand up and say something...anything. 
American by birth...southern by the Grace of God!!! ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-15-2008 at 6:51pm
I used to live down in Virginia, I speak English and Southern so I might be able to keep up... ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-15-2008 at 7:36pm
Now Greg, I'll bet you have a accent! Had a friend born and raised in the Chicago are and moved to Atlanta. It only took her a couple years to pick it up!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: April-15-2008 at 8:43pm
Yea Pete, I have a serious accent. Some call it a drawl LOL; that was the original joke...I can hear a yankee coming. No offense to anyone though, I have several friends who are either down here from up north or who are still stuck there(meant politely)...we're all the same even if we do sound a little different.
I will say that half of my family is from WI, and the first thing my grandfather did out of the Navy was move south... Virginia is beautiful country and connected to my area by the appalachians. Joe, it's probably just close enough to WV for me to be able to pick up on some of what you say.
Cool site Keith!!! ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: April-15-2008 at 11:21pm
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he does bigtime, yeeall. Ive talked to him on the phone
Now, you Ford guys, I heard it all and read the article, a guy takes a 351, uses 318 rods that he installs bushings in and the best part of the whole article is....he puts some Chevy pistons in the blue uh oh, it turns it into a 372, which roughly makes 400 to 450 horse. he claims the cost to be around $400.00. I knew someday someone would figure out how to put chevy pistons in those tin lizzy's lol Ill post the article ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: April-16-2008 at 9:32am
LOL! ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: April-16-2008 at 11:13pm
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Greg, do i have a yank accent? ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |