351 rebuild components
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5789
Printed Date: November-21-2024 at 8:07pm
Topic: 351 rebuild components
Posted By: 81nautique
Subject: 351 rebuild components
Date Posted: February-20-2007 at 6:15pm
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Here's a list of what's going into my 351. If anyone has any advice, good or bad I'd love to hear it now. I'll get the block back in 2 weeks and start a$$embling.
Boiled and magnaflux block Block bored 30 over and deck honed. Crank is good so it will just be polished. Everything measured up good so standard size bearings will go back in. Balance the rotating a$$embly. Pistons will be Sealed Power forged. Compression ratio with GT40p heads will be 9.3:1 Rings will be sealed power moly. Main/rod bearings will be Clevite H series Trimetal. Clevite cam bearings Heads are new GT40p Intake is edelbrock performer. new Holley 600 carb cam research camshaft specs Rpm Range idle to 5000 Duration @.050 Intake 205 Exhaust 210 lift w 1.6 Rockers .460 LSA: 112 Stock rocker arms. I haven't purchased a timing set or push rods yet. Oh yeah and I just ordered a set of those shiny valve covers like jbear put on his boat this weekend so if it doesn't go it will atleast look good. 
Like I said I'll be putting this together in about 2 weeks, Last short block I put together was about 25 years ago so I'm open for advice/tips. Thanks ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Replies:
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: February-20-2007 at 6:51pm
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get a true roller timing chain and gears and if it's been awhile sense you replace the circ pump get a new directional pump and don't forget a new oil pump. And some nice S/S intake bolts, what's the ignition system like, ditch the conversion kit and get a good Mallory unit and HO coil and a nice set of plug wires too if yours are old.
Alan I know you have done some one the motor last year cann't remember everything you did but your on the right track. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: February-20-2007 at 7:11pm
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Chris, I figured I would get a roller but just haven't gotten it ordered yet, I do have the new intake manifold bolt set. I have a new directional pump from SkiDim since my old one started leaking last fall.
Conversion kit is all I have for now, remember I had to replace the exhaust manifolds too so the cash is getting a little thin. I went with higher quality parts for the internals thinking I would upgrade the ignition when the next money tree blooms. I found brand new PCM manifolds on ebay for $159 each from Chamberland in florida, Skidim lists them for $199 so I grabbed them while I could. Thanks ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: MaddMarxx
Date Posted: February-20-2007 at 8:21pm
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81..That all sounds good so far, did you get the sealed power rebuild kit or just the pistons, Are they flat tops?
79..is right a roller chain is a must, and a good oil pump, and a good set of push rods, ARP rod bolts, also think about a new fluidampr balancer. building it strong from the bottom up is the way to go, you can always add the bolt on parts later, when you get more money! GOOD LUCK |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: February-20-2007 at 9:23pm
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he should stick with whatever harmonic balancer he has and they should have used when they balanced the crank and rods, otherwise the balance will be off. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: February-20-2007 at 10:23pm
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MM,
here's the piston we ordered http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=TRW%2DL2446F30&autoview=sku - speedpro I said sealed power above but they are speedpro. Another case of old age and CRS. I have 60CC heads so we had to find something that would keep us under 9.5:1 Cr. Also paid more for forged over Hypereutectic but I think that is money well spent. I didn't order the kit, my rebuilder made recommendations and we looked up all the parts individually. Might have cost a little more than a kit but he was very adamant about certain products and brands that he had good experience with. Also had some negative things to say about a few brands to stay away from. He builds some amazing race engines and does quite a few marine engines as well. His shop foreman is about 60 and the guys been building engines since God was a baby so the machine work is in good hands. 79, They did use the stock balancer and flywheel to balance with. What do you guys consider to be a good oil pump and push rods? Should I go with a standard volume pump? I've seen arguements both ways here. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: February-21-2007 at 8:20am
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melling oil pumps are about as good as they get, high volume is fine just not high pressure. I was looking at .060" walled comp cam push rods, your not getting to crazy with your cam so stock wouldn't kill you, I'm going with the heavy duty .060" walled so if I ever want to get crazy with the cam I can, that's why I used .600 lift springs too. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: AWhite70
Date Posted: February-21-2007 at 10:43am
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One thing I'll add. Make sure piston to bore clearance was set properly in your block. A few of us on here (myself included) have learned this the hard way.
Marine engines need more clearance, and forged pistons require more clearance than cast and hypereutectic. Also be careful when installing your pushrods and rockerarms. Since the valvetrain isn't adjustable you'll need to make sure that the base circle of the cam hasn't shifted at all and that your lifter preload is still correct. ------------- AWhite70 http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=562&sort=revyear&pagenum=5&yrstart=1976&yrend=1980" rel="nofollow - '79 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: February-21-2007 at 2:15pm
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Awhite,
Yes thanks, I followed your situation with the clearances and discussed this with my machine shop. He is well versed in marine engines and had an answer for everything I asked regarding clearance and ring gap. I'm not sure what you mean by base circle of the cam. Degreeing it? Pushrod length is one of the reasons I haven't ordered them yet, I figure I will have to check length first based on lifter preload tolerances then order what I need. I do believe they will be stock length but need to check. Thanks ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: M3Fan
Date Posted: February-21-2007 at 2:53pm
There is quite a bit of information in this thread that is WAY over my head. Is this english? 
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Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: February-21-2007 at 2:59pm
I'm just faking it Joel It's a little beyond me too because I haven't played with engines in a while, but I'm a fast learner,ask a lot of questions and I'll try anything once(twice if I like it)------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
M3Fan wrote:Posted By: AWhite70
Date Posted: February-21-2007 at 4:31pm
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Base circle of the cam is the diameter of the cam where there is zero lift (valves closed).
When checking pushrod length you have to be on the base circle of the cam. The base circle of the cam is just one factor that effects pushrod length though. Most everything in the valvetrain has an impact. With all the changes you're making it is wise to check for the proper length before you purchase pushrods ------------- AWhite70 http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=562&sort=revyear&pagenum=5&yrstart=1976&yrend=1980" rel="nofollow - '79 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: February-21-2007 at 5:01pm
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You don't have that issue with stud mount rockers. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: February-21-2007 at 5:41pm
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Awhite, I follow the thinking. Will do.
79, I get the hint stud  ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: February-21-2007 at 6:17pm
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that's why I had the machine shop mill the boss' off and tap and drilled for studs and guide plates. Takes a little longer to adjust, just cann't torque them down and go like the factory ones. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: AWhite70
Date Posted: February-21-2007 at 7:38pm
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I kept the non adjustable valvetrain, but I wish I would have spent the extra $$$ to go with studs and guideplates. In the long run it would have saved a lot of ha$$les.
In the end my valvetrain geometry is right and I only needed one pushrod length. It took a lot of calculations (fancy spreadsheet), some semi-custom length pushrods, and shimming a few rocker pedestels. ------------- AWhite70 http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=562&sort=revyear&pagenum=5&yrstart=1976&yrend=1980" rel="nofollow - '79 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: 87BFN owner
Date Posted: February-21-2007 at 10:09pm
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81 we use ARP push rods in all the motor we build. I agree ARP rod bolts are also the way to go as MM suggested. 79 is right about the melling oil pump I would also use high volume.
One question, with all the monye your already putting in the motor especially balancing and all why not go gear to gear for the timing set? ------------- |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: February-22-2007 at 7:21am
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this is personal preference but i always stick with a good stock oil pump, more volume means more pressure, no reason to run high pressure on your bottem end, again....personal preference ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: February-22-2007 at 7:41am
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Awhite, I'm going to have to give this some more consideration. Why the variations in pushrod length from cyl to cyl? I would think if the heads or deck were shaved you would have to account for that but the pushrod size should be the same for all. I'm going to have to look up the tolerance for lifter preload(the Machine shop has my PCM manual right now) but I think it was .020.
BFN, Everyone, including PCM says just to use a roller chain, the gears are overkil for this application. Eric, I've heard arguemenst both ways and was originally going stock, now I'm questioning that so again. Awhite, what did you go with for a pump, standard or high volumne? Thanks all ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: February-22-2007 at 8:14am
Alan, I believe the most common spec Ive read is .020-.040" for proper lifter preload. It really *shouldnt* vary from cylinder to cylinder if the heads are milled properly, but it doesnt hurt to measure anyways. I only measured cyl #1 when I put the new heads on and shimmed all the rockers the same. I do have a little bit of clatter, so when I install my RR's this spring, Im going to measure them all. As far as going to stud mount, they are clearly the superior system. Beyond being fully adjustable, they are stronger (studs come in 3/8" and 7/16", as opposed to the 5/16" bolts on the pedestal style). There are 2 drawbacks though: 1) cost and 2) valve cover clearance. My machine shop quoted me $150 to have the heads tapped for studs. You'll also have to get new rockers now- which will set you back $250-350 (new) for a good set of aluminum rollers. I believe the stud mounts also run into clearance problems with stock height valve covers. The pedestal mounts seem to require less clearance. You could use tall style valve covers, but I dont know if they will interfere with the PCM manifolds. In my case, I decided it just wasnt worth the cost to go stud mounts on these heads. If I were doing a full rebuild, I might have gone all out (and may do so in the future). However, its easy enough to shim the rockers and get the right preload and the 5/16" bolts are plenty strong for our application. YMMV. ------------- |
Posted By: leo0648
Date Posted: February-22-2007 at 8:33am
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Hey guys, I saw this on ebay. What do you think. I talked to the guy, and he said the reason that makes it 'reverse' are the seals. He also has a kit with a reverse cam shaft, but I doubt I will need a reverse cam.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=010&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=200080332234&rd=1,1 |
Posted By: AWhite70
Date Posted: February-22-2007 at 10:21am
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Things that can drive slight differences in required pushrod length valve to valve are:
Slight differences in cam base circle lobe to lobe Slight differences in valve seat depth Slight differences in rocker pedestel height Slight differences part to part in rocker geometry, valve stem length etc. The liklihood of needing different length pushrods is slim but a possibility. In my case I had to shim three of my rocker pedestels slightly to get back in the range of proper preload. It wasn't much, and I could probably have gotten away without the shims but I'm anal and wanted it right. Shimming rocker pedestels must not be too uncommon because Ford Motorsports makes a rocker pedestel shim kit for their pedestel mount roller rockers. ------------- AWhite70 http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=562&sort=revyear&pagenum=5&yrstart=1976&yrend=1980" rel="nofollow - '79 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: February-22-2007 at 11:44am
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Awhite And Trbenj, Great discussion , thank you. I will measure each pushrod after a$$embling and then order pushrods and/or shims according to my findings.
I need to stick with the stock set up I have now because my wife keeps seeing boxes from Summit Racing showing up everyday. She hasn't asked how much yet but to keep the peace she's heading to N Carolina for a week and a half without me. 
New engine $2000, vacation for the wife $2000, a happy marriage PRICELESS ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: February-22-2007 at 11:57am
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Allan I think that 2k mark is going to grow. I have half that in a set of heads without the push rods. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: February-22-2007 at 12:18pm
Alan, it wouldnt hurt to have the shims handy either way- its only $8.88 from summit for the http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=FMS%2DM%2D6529%2DA302&autoview=sku - Ford Racing Kit . ------------- |
Posted By: 87BFN owner
Date Posted: February-22-2007 at 6:32pm
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just wondering 81 why did you have the motor balanced, you will never spin it over 6 grand. ------------- |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: February-22-2007 at 6:33pm
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If it's balanced it will spin 6K if he want's too, run mine at 5500 all day long with no issue other than the trips to the pump to fill up.
Alan your going to need a little prop work too otherwise you'll only be able to open it up 3/4 of the way with all of the mods you are making. Glad I've got a new set of heads and exhaust logs to stay ahead of you guys, Steve and I won't be able to run away from guys as easily as we did last year, hell where's stang been hiding out? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: February-22-2007 at 8:31pm
I just couldn't see spending the money on a new motor without balancing it. The new forged pistons are a different weight than the stock cast ones and the rebuilder strongly suggested it. Basicly these motors don't turn a lot of rpms but they turn 4000 rpm regularly and if you do a lot of footing can stay there for a while. I just want this thing to be bulletproof and I don't want to be holding my breath when I decide to nail it and scream down the river. It's probably an over cautious approach but I like to go fast and this gives me a little more confidence if I decide to hold the throttle down longer than I should. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: February-22-2007 at 8:41pm
I talked to Bill Weeks at Acme and he said we should get the boat out with the mods and run it,then let him know what it's turning and he'll make some suggestions. The old motor was turning at 4800 with the 540 prop, I hope we can add some cup and keep the rpm managable without having to go to a different prop. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: February-22-2007 at 9:02pm
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your not going to be able to add enough cup to it most likely, if your already turning 4800 then your going to see about 6k easy. I'm not sold on Bill too much, talked to him a bunch before I got my 470 he told me to use the 540 and I said no way, I pegged the tach with the federal prop I had reworked to a 13 x 14 and he wanted me to go with a 12.5 x 13 ACME 540. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: February-22-2007 at 9:37pm
I think the 540 is actually 13x12, so it may still rev too high with added cup. It may be best to not make any prop changes yet- give it a water test after the upgrades and see where you are. Depending on how many RPM you want to shed, theres a few options. The new 13x14 for the big blocks may work well if you think the 470 is too steep for pulling. ------------- |
Posted By: reidp
Date Posted: February-22-2007 at 9:52pm
'79, you'd better have some Yates heads and some extra high HiTeks if you plan on staying ahead of me this year. Just kidding, but we might just bring a sleeper...... ------------- ReidP /diaries/details.asp?ID=231&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975 - 1973 Mustang |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: February-22-2007 at 10:24pm
I heard they were making a 13x14 now but why the heck don't they have a 13x13? I don't want to put a prop on that's gonna kill my holeshot. Like I said, we'll water test it and then decide what to do. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: MaddMarxx
Date Posted: February-22-2007 at 10:29pm
| reid.. that b/c the wind slides over your head better then ours! |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: February-23-2007 at 7:17am
Hey, you said it yourself- no sandbaggin! ------------- |
Posted By: reidp
Date Posted: February-23-2007 at 8:53am
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Tim,...ah, I was just kidding about that sleeper part too. We'll probably be bringing a 2 barrel carb boat. I certainly don't condone racing, esp with the family ski boat. Unless, of course you're in the company of some very experienced drivers eagerly seeking to test their enhancements, and far from home and away from the ma$$es, then I guess I could go along with some friendly but safe,....testing. And as long as ne'er a word of the results was leaked or discussed at all afterwards, as that could lead to hard feelings and bitterness amongst true friends. Unless I win!!
MM, I'll take any advantage I can get. Just bought some dome wax. ------------- ReidP /diaries/details.asp?ID=231&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975 - 1973 Mustang |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: February-23-2007 at 8:58am
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The arms race is really heating up around here, Keith should be getting some royalties from all these Summit sales. I will save my trash talking for the time being, but it does seem the price of poker is going up... ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: M3Fan
Date Posted: February-23-2007 at 9:05am
| I'll bring my checkered flag. I'm thinking early AM Friday morning at GL- some WOT runs on gla$$! |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: February-23-2007 at 9:39am
I concur. Ill believe the 2-barrel comment when I see it at GL, but not until then.
By the way, did you get my email? Joe, whats the timeframe look like on that stroker? M3, get the flag ready for some 0-40 sprints. I think Ive got too much hull in the water to compete with these guys on the top end, but the newer boats come out of the water pretty good. ------------- |
Posted By: reidp
Date Posted: February-23-2007 at 9:55am
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Hopefully everyone knows I'm just the eternal antagonist. Always looking to stir up some good banter.
But wouldn't a checkered flag be typically indicative of a close race? Friday AM? Maybe I'd better leave a day earlier to make sure I get there on time, if only just to watch. Need to make sure everyone's aware of this anticipated part of the festivities. ------------- ReidP /diaries/details.asp?ID=231&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975 - 1973 Mustang |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: February-23-2007 at 10:11am
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Reid I've got a set of heads that have larger valves and smaller chambers than the ones we installed on Johns, it'll be around 10:1 compression after it's done and I'm shedding a few pounds in the process with the AL exhaust so I;ll have some legs in the long run might get a half length out of the hole but it won't last long.
You won't see me buying hy-teks don't need them got a nice set of new unused polished edelbrocks all ready. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: March-06-2007 at 7:12am
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Does anyone have a better source for front and rear main seals for this engine, 351 reverse rotation? Skidim has them but at about $120, Felpro makes them for half the price but they are backordered until late march from everyone I've tried.
My machinist says that although the engine is reverse there is an oil wick on the crank so I could use a standard or reverse rear seal. I was going to get the reverse anyway but now I'm stuck and I don't want to wait another 3 weeks. What do you think about the standard seal comment? I would still need the front seal to be reverse. I'd like to get started assembling this weekend. Thanks ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: March-06-2007 at 8:21am
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if the seals don't have wick bosses on the seal then it won't make a difference, that is as long as the lip of the seal is smooth, you have the wick lines on the crank at the rear so a smoothed face seal is what you want. The front would be better off with the feature in the seal but not really needed if it really comes dowm to it. If you have the Fel-pro seal number then try summit or jeg, also call bearings incorperated(sp) with the part number and go from there. If you can give me some specs for the OD and ID of the seal I can check my seal catolog and might be able to get you some options on the seals. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: March-06-2007 at 8:56am
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I don't have specs Chris but the part numbers from Summit are Fpp-17748 for the rear seal and fpp-17795 for the timing cover seal. Both are out of stock at summit until 3-23 and Jegs can't even find the part numbers. Jegs website is a POS and their tech support is sub par to summits.
I guess I should trust the guy with 30 years of experience then and just get a standard rotation seal for the rear, he says I still need a reverse for the the front which I can get from Skidim, it was the less expensive of the 2 anyway. Thanks ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: March-06-2007 at 10:05am
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Alan didn't the gasket set come with front and rear oil seal with it? look at the seal for bumps on the lip's surface and see if they are lines or triangular in shape, if they are triangular then it's a by-directional and will work fine. if it's lines then it's directional. My catalog doesn't list federal mogal as a cross reference if you have a CR, national, NOK or Devries number then I can give you all of them. I'll look into it a little more. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: March-06-2007 at 10:18am
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Gasket set is part of the problem. Since I was originally only doing the heads I had purchased a top end set. The new water pump came with gaskets, so all I needed was timing cover, oil pan and seals. I should have just returned the original set but I had already opened it and I bought it about four months ago. So now I'm piece mealing it to get the final items I need. Wouldn't be a big deal if the Felpro ones weren't back ordered. I need to stop at an auto parts store today and see if I can take a look at the lip of a standard seal. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: March-06-2007 at 10:34am
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well from what I can tell you need a seal for a 2.561 bore and a shaft dia of 1.875 for the front and the wick lines need to go downward from the front of the seal towards the back or open area of the seal. I'll see if I can figure out what the CR or national number is for you. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: March-06-2007 at 11:09am
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Allan call around and ask for National oil seal part numbers 17748 and 17795 or have then cross reference those numbers.
Fel-pro is national oil seal and everyone cross reference their numbers, so call all the autoparts store's in your area. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: March-06-2007 at 11:30am
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Thanks Chris, I'm on it.
------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: March-06-2007 at 1:19pm
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That was the trick Chris, Summit site listed it as Felpro but no one could match the numbers up. I called the local autozone and told him to look in the national book and he found it in minutes. Still had to order but they'll be in tommorrow for $54 for the set. Thanks a million ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: March-06-2007 at 1:51pm
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Just don't get the box dirty and double check the wick features of the lip seal to make sure it's going in the right direction. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: March-06-2007 at 2:36pm
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I'll bring the seals to the engine builder when I pick up the block saturday and let him take a look to make sure they're correct. he;s the guy who gave me the part numbers so I think we're good.
------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: March-10-2007 at 7:49am
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Bummer, block won't be ready til monday. I was really looking forward to getting started. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: March-10-2007 at 8:11am
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hey allan on that rear seal is it a one piece seal? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: March-10-2007 at 8:41am
It's a 2 piece and it does appear to be the correct one. I'm not so sure about the front seal though. The packaging shows it for a 289/302, does not state 351. The wife picked it up for me so I wasn't there to ask to verify it will work. It certainly does not look like what came off the motor. I may just return it and order the one from Skidim, the front seal wasn't the expensive one anyway and atleast I'll know it's correct. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: March-10-2007 at 8:48am
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well the 302 and 351w oil pans are different but I believe the timing covers are the same. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: AWhite70
Date Posted: March-13-2007 at 11:19am
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I've seen front seals that look dramatically different. If I remember right the one I took out of my '79 had a flange on it to help control insertion depth. The one I replaced it with didn't have the flange. The sealing geometry and OD of the press-fit were the same though. ------------- AWhite70 http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=562&sort=revyear&pagenum=5&yrstart=1976&yrend=1980" rel="nofollow - '79 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: March-13-2007 at 8:23pm
I think that is the case with this front seal. It checks out in the parts book but doesn't have the lip you described, I think we're good to go. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: March-13-2007 at 8:27pm
Without having my block to start assembling this past weekend I was still able to get a fair amount of work done. Scrubed the bilge clean, steam cleaned the carpets, detailed the tranny for reinstall and finished putting the new chrome back on the dash.
 ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: March-13-2007 at 8:51pm
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Looks like Alan is locked in for the 80's category at Great Lake again this year. Lookin' good! ------------- |
Posted By: p/allen
Date Posted: March-13-2007 at 10:55pm
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Looks good Alan . Keep the pics coming.
Pat ------------- Pat http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w146/72ccfan/100_5977-1.jpg - My 72 Skier Rock River Dixon,ILL. |
Posted By: duckfamily
Date Posted: March-14-2007 at 5:25pm
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Questions;
I have my engine out during a total restoration. I took it to an axcellent rebuilder. He has limited exp. in marine though. What should I be aware of? He has a couple of questions so far. 1. Oil pump does it matter with reverse rotation? 2.What kind of rings? moly, chrome, or cast? Also my boat is a 77 he says the engine is a 71 or 72? ------------- Correct Craft owner for 13 years. |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: March-14-2007 at 5:39pm
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Duck, I'm not an expert here but this is what I'm putting in.
I went with moly rings. Middle of the road but good for this level of performance, definately better than stock cast. They suggest chrome moly if you have higher compression, nitrous or a blower. Went with tri metal cleavite bearings for mains and rods. These are an excelent bearing and much better than stock. I also went with forged pistons over original cast or hyperuetectic. The forged I found were only slightly more than the hypers. My rebuilder is sceptical of aftermarker cast pistons from any mfg'r, just see's them as budget pistons and not worth the savings. I may be wrong on this but the oil pump is driven by the distributor shaft which turns the same direction no matter what rotation the engine spins. Someone else may have to chime in on that but I believe that to be true so the pump is standard. Anything else ask away I'll give it my best. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: March-14-2007 at 6:01pm
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piston to cyl wall clearance's and ring gaps are different as well as the piston is rotated 180 degrees I believe.
You also need the correct oil seals for the crank front and rear, and the cams are not the same std vs rev. you need to pay attentions to the circlulation pump as well as the starter. some of these items are not a big deal if you are re-using the old ones but they should be inspected and re-built if needed. Since your rebuilding the motor no need putting junk/worn out parts back on it. Also now is a good time to update the ign system if point style and the alternator if it has an external regulator. Dipping the exhaust manifolds to clean them is also a good choice too. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: March-14-2007 at 6:52pm
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Chris I agree with all you have to say in the second paragraph,but as far as turning the pistons 180 and the piston to cyl. clearance,my stroker was all set up as a hi per rebuild.
Hope it's right , got 22 hrs. and have hammered her hard for the last 8 hrs,5200 rpms plus.Explain why you would turn the pistons,would the valve cut outs be backward,sorry for the dumb question....boat dr ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: March-14-2007 at 7:43pm
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well it was mainly for flat top or dished pistons and has been brought up here a couple of times, mainly by awhite70 if I recall correctly, Has something to do with the loading on the wrist pin and piston for the 180, there might be a slight offsit on the wrist pin's bore on the piston and with the rev rotation it effects it. The larger ring gaps and cyl wall/piston clearance has to do I think with the lower block temps and expansion of the piston so you need the extra clearance for the piston to grow or it scuffs the cyl wall.
For notched pistons it could be an issue, I've seen some where both sides are notched so it's not a big deal and if there isn't a slight offsit to the wrist pin then it's not an issue either. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: March-14-2007 at 9:14pm
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chris, guess I knew about the offset but did not give it any thought when giving details to my engine builder,by the way not a single drop of oil from the rear seal.Eagle stroker crank w/one piece rear main.
One other issue i have was with the part # you gave for the rear main,my info says the Felpro # 11746 Victor #JV568 Could not locate either,Bought the bottom end set from Vince Skidim,maybe i wrote the #'s down wrong?????????????? ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: March-14-2007 at 9:26pm
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Rotating the pistons 180 is correct if they have an offset. My rebuilder was surprised to see that the pistons we pulled out of my block were not rotated from the factory. He said he would check when he pulled it apart to see if there was an offset or not. The new pistons going in have a directional arrow on them and I will leave it to the machinist to let me know if they are offset and need to be installed reversed. Pick everything up thursday so I can start putting it all back together this weekend.
Here are the seal numbers, even states reverse rotation on the packaging.  ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: March-14-2007 at 9:29pm
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Doc and 79, am I correct on the rotation of the oil pump? Doesn't matter since the dist. turns the same direction no matter if the motor is reverse or not, right? ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: March-15-2007 at 12:27am
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81nautique, correct oil pump is a std item because as you surmised the gears are cut different to allow dist rotation in the same direction .
------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: reidp
Date Posted: March-15-2007 at 7:08am
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Duck, regarding the age of your engine, how is he determining the engine age, in terms of a '71-'72. If he's looking at casting numbers as shown on the intake manifold or block, it could indeed appear as a 71-72, while it could have indeed been assembled in '76 or '77. The casting numbers are reflective of when the part was "originally" cast and the casting number may not change again until design changes are made. If your cylinder heads are the early 351 style with the larger plugs (13/16" vs 5/8"), they are more than likely a 1970 "date" casting. But if he's found the mfr's serial no. tag on the top of the engine somewhere, then that might be more conclusive. What kind of engine is it? If it's a PCM or Commander, chances are it's not a 71-72 either, as they were not yet in production, but more likely a Waukesha, Crusader or Palmer to be that age, if it's a Ford. Hope this helps. ------------- ReidP /diaries/details.asp?ID=231&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975 - 1973 Mustang |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: March-15-2007 at 9:02am
Thanks Joe, I am learning an aweful lot with this project and having fun in process. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: March-16-2007 at 3:10am
The pistons are turned 180 deg because the thrust side (the side that takes the brunt of the load on the power stroke) changes to the other side when the direction of the crank changes. This is the case in a reverse rotation engine. If pistons are used that only have two valve reliefs cut into them, you have to order a set of 4 right side and 4 left side pistons (if pistons are not sold in a set). For running this type piston in a reverse rotation engine, you are supposed to swap the left side to the right and vice versa and point the notches to the rear. I ran into this issue a couple years back when I was building a 350 Chevy TPI engine. ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: AWhite70
Date Posted: March-16-2007 at 7:32am
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As mentioned earlier turning the pistons around only matters if the wrist pin has an offset from center. The speedpro pistons I used didn't have an offset so I put them in normally with the marks pointing towards the front. Engine's been running fine for 100hrs since.
Another reverse rotation item that hasn't been mentioned yet is crank grinding. For a cast crank the direction of the grinding has to agree with the direction of rotation. Microscopic burrs are created during the process and if they're not pointing in the right direction your bearings won't live long. Most everything else has been covered: Increased piston to bore clearance Cam is different from standard rotation. Oil pump is the same as standard auto. Most other marine/rev. rot components are on the outside of the engine and can be reused. ------------- AWhite70 http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=562&sort=revyear&pagenum=5&yrstart=1976&yrend=1980" rel="nofollow - '79 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: March-16-2007 at 7:54am
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Awhite,
That's why it's so important to work with a machinist that has done marine engines before. I left it up to him to tell me whether the pistons had an ofset. My set of speed pros do so they have been mounted so the arrows point to the back. The originals that came out did not so they were indexed to the front. We talked about piston bore clearance and I also let him gap the rings. really all I'm doing now is assembling it , the hard works been done. We also polished the crank and it was done reverse as well. Got all my stuff back last night and again after picking his brain for another 30 minutes I am thoroughly impressed with his work and knowledge, I talked to 3 shops before I found this guy but I knew instantly this was the right place. Very Pleased and I'm hoping for a very productive weekend putting this back together. Thanks for letting me bounce these questions off of you guys, One last ?, lefty loosy righty tighty ,right? ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: March-16-2007 at 8:23am
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One more thing, Tighten till you hear snap, then back off 1/4 turn. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: March-16-2007 at 8:31am
Thanks alot but I figured that one out a long time ago
Stay tuned though as I figure I'll hit the water in maybe 3-4 weeks and I have a brand new Holley 600 that I'll be tuning. I've read all your stuff about that and I'm sure I'll be needing you to get this thing running primo. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: March-16-2007 at 9:45am
Hey Alan, what are you doing with those left over 4160s?  ------------- |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: March-16-2007 at 10:21am
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I would return it and rebuild the one he has and save the cash. Carbs very rarely wear out, once in a while the throttle plate wears out but not very often, everything else is replacable at a fraction of the cost of a new one and you'll never know the difference. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: March-16-2007 at 12:22pm
Chris, I've had this carb for over a year just sitting on the shelf so I may as well put it on, got it pretty cheap. HW. I rebuilt the old one last season and figurd we'd throw it on your boat this spring and see if that's your problem. Your welcome to try it, it has 6.5 PV in it and runs very good. Choke doesn't work but maybe we could swap with yours. I'll give it to you for a swap with yours and new rebuild kit(about $50). Or we could just rebuild yours but I'm a little busy right now and your probably much closer to getting in the water than me. You can also try my 540 for a day or so to see if you like it. It may even be for sale once I get mine running and find out what I need. Let me know what you want to do. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: March-16-2007 at 12:38pm
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81, What is your price on the carb,after the Hi Teks,I am going to sell this new 450cfm Holley. It worked great for a stock 302,and the 750cfm does a good job but a little large for the 331...........boat dr ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: March-16-2007 at 12:46pm
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Alan, interested in both. I was thinking the same thing with the carb swapping, plus cash/beer. I'd love to try that prop as well, and buy if you won't be using it. Thanks for the thought. ------------- |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: March-16-2007 at 1:00pm
Doc, I have no idea on a price right now and I want to try to get Hollywoods problem sorted out first. I could rebuild the one he's swapping with me for you or send it to you as is if you want. I'll let you know later once we get him sorted out. PS. HW, I still think you need a timing chain and that's the first thing we should look at. If I was replacing my distributor right now I'd let you try the EI conversion coming out of mine but that may be next year. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: March-16-2007 at 1:05pm
Doc, if you find a 600cfm for your stroker, let me know what you want for either the 450 or 750 (or both). I assume both are 4160's? ------------- |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: March-16-2007 at 1:50pm
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Kevin what issues are you have with your's? don't recall you posting having any kind of trouble with your boat. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: March-16-2007 at 2:09pm
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Chris, serious lack of power. 38mph @ 4300 rpm WOT. It's ran like this since we got it 5 years ago, but never knew now slow it actually was until I got out the GPS in fall. Have lots of things to look over, motor is getting bent over for an "exam" monday after work. Here comes the choo-choo!
Alan, I wouldn't mind an attempt at a rebuild myself, or watch you as I haven't dug into a carb before, and didn't want to on the only one we have for the boat. Once the ice is out I'll be skiing so swapping out carbs with a known good runner would be extremely convenient. The non-heated garage hasn't been very motivating to work on the boat these last 2 bitter cold months. ------------- |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: March-16-2007 at 2:16pm
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well I guess a compression check is in order, followed by the timing then the fuel pressure all easy things, could be as simple as a bad secondary diaphram on the carb. Does it miss fire or any thing? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: March-16-2007 at 2:33pm
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No, never. And that spec I gave was with a 13x12 prop. I put on a 13x13 and lost 500 rpm and .5 mph.
That's the order of tests on tap for the check-up. ------------- |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: March-16-2007 at 2:40pm
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i would do the fuel pressure first, that way the motor doesn't get hot, then I would look at the timing, well second thought check out the mechanical advance of the dist first, then FP, then the compression test all of these can and should be done with out the engine firing.
three-five cranks should be enough for the fuel pressure, then three-four cranks for each cyclinder for the compression, then the timing. Good luck hope it is something simple. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: March-17-2007 at 5:22pm
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Well I had a pretty good day today. Got the block assembled and heads mounted. Ran into zero problems with the assembly and actually really enjoyed myself. Couple of photos.
3 tables of parts 
Assembled pistons ready to go in 
Blocks ready for the crank 
Bottom ends done 
pistons went in sweet 
long block is basically done except for valve train  ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: March-17-2007 at 5:27pm
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Ok, now with the photos out of the way I must admit I am stumped and need a little help. I have read all I can find on lifter preload but am still not exactly sure what I am doing. I need to determine if my original pushrod length will be correct. I plan on purchasing new pushrods once I determine what length I need and I am not exactly sure how to do that. I'm now wishing I had the extra money for the studs and andjustable valve train but it just isn't in the budget so I need to figure this out.
Can anyone put the procedure in plain speak so I can determine what I need and get them ordered? Thanks ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: March-17-2007 at 8:39pm
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81, have a new Summit chain and sprockets still in the box, will let them go cheap or will swap for something.........
If you have not milled a lot off your heads, and you still have the stock push rods,all this fits perfectly on the GT heads,just tighten the bolts to specs. No further adjusting required,the adjustable valve train is a lot of money that could be spent elsewhere..JMHO, and i don't know jack, but my 331 hunt's. Bumped the time up today 37 total premium fuel,put the 450cfm back on,left the GPS at home, did not look at speedo.Pulled 13x14 cupped 5400rpms. Last week on the lake w/GPS same prop 2000 =24.5.....4600rpms =56.3 mph Bigger carb and HI- Teks should give me 300 maybe 400 more revs, this will put me at 60 plus,this is why i built a stroker.......boat dr ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: March-17-2007 at 8:53pm
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That must be a wild ride in that little boat Doc.
I put a new cloyes double roller chain in. Very reasonable $40 bucks. My heads are brand new, never milled so I really think I could use stock pushrods. The reason I'm skeptical is because the valve stems could be different than my old heads. I figure Tim will have a little advise in a day or so and then I can get the last of my parts ordered and drop this puppy back in the boat. We'll work something out for the 600 holley once I know what Hollywood needs to do. I was going to save it as a spare but that sort of stuff usually sits on the shelf collecting dust so might as well get it to someone that can use it. Thanks ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: March-17-2007 at 9:15pm
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81, It is one of RUSH things,won't hold it there long,just poke the pedal, hang on, listen to that sound and back off,yee hah........ ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: March-17-2007 at 10:21pm
81, here's what you need to do to check preload: With all of your pushrods and rockers in place, tighten your rocker bolts down and torgue to spec. Then rotate the crankshaft in the direction of running until the #1 piston is on the compression stroke and coming up on top dead center (both valves closed). Then check the plungers of the two lifters for cyl #1 (intake and exhaust). The plungers should be recessed below their retainers by .020 to .060". This is the proper preload for hydraulic lifters. If the plungers are not within this specification then you need to shorten or lengthen your pushrods. Once the lifters are checked for #1 Cyl, rotate the crank to the next cyl in the firing order and check the lifters for this cyl. Continue until done. That is it! If you are within specs for all cylinders you can use the pushrods you have and have a good feeling that your engine is right. ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: March-18-2007 at 8:18am
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Thanks Nutty, much simpler than i thought. Think I was over engineering the process. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: March-18-2007 at 11:28am
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Alan, Nutty is correct. The best set of instructions I found for checking lifter preload was from http://www.compcams.com/Technical/Instructions/Files/145.pdf - Comp Cams. The section on setting hydraulic lifter preload for non-adjustable rocker arms is pretty good. ------------- |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: March-18-2007 at 1:09pm
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Thanks Tim, That's the tech article I was looking for. I'd read it before but misplaced it.
After checking all pushrods I am going to buy the exact size 8.187 that are in there and a shim kit since there is some variation from valve to valve. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: March-22-2007 at 11:01pm
Got the last of my parts in today so I can hopefully button this thing up saturday. Installed the pushrods and set the preload. Decided to use my own method. I tried the 2 score lines on the pushrods but that was difficult to measure and its also a little difficult to get a good reading with a feeler gage in the lifter. I ended up using a dial indicator with a magnetic base. I Bottomed out the lifter like the other methods, attached a small clamp to the pushrod then set the dial indicator to 0 and backed off the rocker nut, took a reading, shimmed as needed and rechecked my measurement. Good to go.
 ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: March-23-2007 at 7:15am
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Alan, did you measure each lifter individually? If so, was there much variation?
I only measured cyl #1 and shimmed all rockers the same (.030"). I plan on re-checking my preload on all the lifters when I do my new rockers this spring. ------------- |