40 amp circuit breaker?
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Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6099
Printed Date: November-30-2024 at 7:38pm
Topic: 40 amp circuit breaker?
Posted By: Poster112
Subject: 40 amp circuit breaker?
Date Posted: March-24-2007 at 8:56pm
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Went out for the first time this year and my electrical problem from last summer surfaced again. Engine and all electrical just cut off (gauges, blower, horn, etc.) In my http://correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4684&KW=circuit+breaker - thread from last summer , before the thread digressed into hilarious banter between TimD and 79, JEFF KOSTIS mentioned the circuit breaker, but I thought that he was talking about a panel of some sort. Today, I figured out that it is, indeed, the 40 amp circuit breaker that will not reset unless I disconnect and then reconnect. (thankfully I figured it out before being towed in by a Mastercraft)
The fix: If I'm not mistaken, the breaker should allow current again when the button is pushed and will trip again if the overload still exists. This one does not reset at all, so I'm going to order a new one from SkiDim. Does anyone know of what else would cause the breaker to not reset at all, other than the switch being faulty? Also, are their any other places to find this switch besides SkiDim? Thanks for the advice! ------------- I'd rather have a bottle-in-front-of-me than a frontal-lobotomy. http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3182&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1925&yrend=2009" rel="nofollow - 1985 Ski 1984 SW |
Replies:
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: March-24-2007 at 9:56pm
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Poster 112. If the breaker will not reset by pushing the red button,I would venture to say, YES,it is defective.SkiDim is a good place, there are cheaper ones. But you will not get the service nor the advice that both Richard and Vince supply with every part.Karen is pretty sharp too........
Ask Vince what type boat he owns??????????boat dr ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: Poster112
Date Posted: March-24-2007 at 10:00pm
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Thanks, Doc. That's what I thought about the switch. I also agree that the service and advice is top notch from skidim. ------------- I'd rather have a bottle-in-front-of-me than a frontal-lobotomy. http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3182&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1925&yrend=2009" rel="nofollow - 1985 Ski 1984 SW |
Posted By: JEFF KOSTIS
Date Posted: March-24-2007 at 10:11pm
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Poster112, Im glad to see you found that breaker. I agree with the above and get a good one from SkiDim.
The only time a breaker wont reset is when its still hot. Once it cools, it should reset unless its bad. Man, I re-read your old post to see what the "hilarious banter" was all about. That is a good way to put it!! Jeff... ------------- MUSTANG COUNTRY http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1074 - 1974 Mustang 17 http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1093 - 1976 Mustang 17 |
Posted By: Poster112
Date Posted: March-24-2007 at 10:45pm
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JEFF, now that you mention it, It was hot to the touch today. Perhaps it cooled down during the disconnect and reconnect process and then reset. This has happened only two times out. Today it happened twice. I immediately headed in after I got it reset the first time, but it happened again on the way in. Any idea what could cause that type of current to trip it or factors to consider? I assume that it is tripped thermally if it waits to cool down before resetting. I have not added any electronics on it or anything. Perhaps a 50 amp would be better or would that just mask a potential problem?
Thanks. Chris ------------- I'd rather have a bottle-in-front-of-me than a frontal-lobotomy. http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3182&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1925&yrend=2009" rel="nofollow - 1985 Ski 1984 SW |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-25-2007 at 8:28am
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Poster112, Do NOT install the 50 amp. If the 40 tripped due to a problem and not a defective breaker you need to find that problem. Since you said that it was hot, I would say something is causing a overload. This can be a very time consuming process as every load on that breaker needs to be checked. If you are electricly inclined, I'm sure we can walk you through, otherwise it may be wise to take it in to someone. Due to the size of the breaker, I'm assuming it is the master breaker on the engine. Correct? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: March-25-2007 at 8:46am
Oh the humanity...next time row. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Poster112 wrote:Posted By: Poster112
Date Posted: March-25-2007 at 8:52am
Yes, Pete, it is the master. I'm not very electrically inclined, though I can read a wiring diagram. I can find all of the components drawing juice, I just don't know what to check for or how to check them. I guess that is what I need to learn first. I'd much rather learn about the system if I can before taking it to someone that'll just fix it 
Thanks for the reply. ------------- I'd rather have a bottle-in-front-of-me than a frontal-lobotomy. http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3182&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1925&yrend=2009" rel="nofollow - 1985 Ski 1984 SW |
Posted By: Poster112
Date Posted: March-25-2007 at 9:00am
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Gottaski, let me be clear, I was not towed in by a Mastercraft. The guy in MC kept asking me if I needed the help. I would have paddled, instead, but I got her running. I do have my pride. ------------- I'd rather have a bottle-in-front-of-me than a frontal-lobotomy. http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3182&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1925&yrend=2009" rel="nofollow - 1985 Ski 1984 SW |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-25-2007 at 11:27am
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Poster112, Do you have the wiring diagram and a ohm meter? If you don't have a volt / ohm meter, they come in real handy around the house . A basic meter at the hardware is about $40. don't buy the cheapest one. A step above cheap will have more ranges. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Poster112
Date Posted: March-25-2007 at 11:37am
Diagram, yes, ohm meter, no. Getting one today. Have no idea how to use it though ------------- I'd rather have a bottle-in-front-of-me than a frontal-lobotomy. http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3182&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1925&yrend=2009" rel="nofollow - 1985 Ski 1984 SW |
Posted By: 05 210
Date Posted: March-25-2007 at 12:19pm
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Sounds like a connection with high resistance.If everything operates normally until this happens,my guess would be a bad connection,or the breaker itself.Check the breaker with the ohmmeter in the closed(normal operating)position.There should be no resistance across the terminals.If there is,that resistance could be the cause of the breaker heating up and tripping.A beaker is basically just a fuse that resets,and the only thing that will blow a fuse is a short,OR an exessive amount of current load that would make the breaker think that there is a short.Check ALL connections related to the breaker,including the breaker connections themselves.And as stated above,DO NOT install a larger breaker unless you are prepared to fight a fire on your boat.Good luck.
BTW,if you're buying a meter,get a digital one,much easier to use than analog. Mike ------------- http:/diaries/details.asp?ID=2219" rel="nofollow - Air Nautique 210 Team 640 hours, not 1 regret |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-25-2007 at 12:46pm
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Yes, if you put in the 50 and started a meltdown in the wiring, you would be pulling the boat to Eric and he would be charging you the extra extra dummy charge!!
There should be some instructions that come with the volt ohm meter. It is quite simple. Any circuit between the test leads will give you the resistence in ohms. For current in amps, take 12 volts (the nominal system volts) and divide it by the ohm reading. Do this for as many devices (loads) on the boat you can isolate and post them and we'll see if there are some high ones. Unless you can find a connector someplace that you can disconnect, you may need to disconnet the respective wire at say a switch. So 1 test lead on the meter going to the device and the other test lead to ground will give to the ohms. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Poster112
Date Posted: March-25-2007 at 2:04pm
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Thanks a lot guys. I 'm not putting on a 50. I like my wife smokin' hot, not my wiring. So, to isolate what I'm testing, I just need to disconnect above the circuit and leave the ground connected?
So a loss of juice in the circuit between the two probes shows resistance and/or a short somewhere between the two probes? It may be next weekend before I can test. I'll post the results then. Thanks. Chris ------------- I'd rather have a bottle-in-front-of-me than a frontal-lobotomy. http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3182&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1925&yrend=2009" rel="nofollow - 1985 Ski 1984 SW |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-25-2007 at 2:31pm
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Poster, When you get the meter, touch the two probes together. You will get 0 ohms. that is a short. A reading with resistence is a "load". Calculate the load in amps like I previously mentioned. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: JEFF KOSTIS
Date Posted: March-25-2007 at 8:08pm
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In theory, all of the above is correct except a standard ohm meter isnt going to read that accurately what is needed. Its just going to read zero, even if the breaker is defective plus your meter leads will also figure into the equation.
I would have to ask if there is any "add on" equipment that might be drawing more than the factory load. If not then, more than likely the problem is what 05210 mentioned. The only "true" way to tell is by actually measuring the current being drawn through the breaker. If your lucky enough to have a current meter that was in in the dash of a boat or vehicle would be the perfect cheap way out. Unfortunately, most multimeters will only read current of up to 10 amps. You can buy a cheap ammeter gauge at the autoparts store if you'd rather know for sure what the load is. Jeff.... ------------- MUSTANG COUNTRY http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1074 - 1974 Mustang 17 http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1093 - 1976 Mustang 17 |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-25-2007 at 8:28pm
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Jeff, Even the cheap meters have a zeroing dial to eliminate the resistence of the test leads of the meter. Yes, the resistence of the wiring in the boat will add to the calculated load but 112 is poping a 40 amp breaker. Thats alot of juice!! It should be easy to find the bad device or bad wiring. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Poster112
Date Posted: March-25-2007 at 9:55pm
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As for add ons, not even radio or cd player. Previous owner dropped in a DUI distributor from Performance Distributors, if that makes a difference. Last summer it happened one time out. I've put less than 40 hours on it since I bought it last June. 15 of them were put on it after it happened the one time last summer. I will say that we were cruising at just above 20mph (about 2500-3000 RPM) when it happened the other day. Last summer I was cruising at about 35 mph when it happened. I don't know if that would make a difference.
Anyway, I bought a meter today, so I'll see what I can find out this week. Thanks, again, guys. Chris ------------- I'd rather have a bottle-in-front-of-me than a frontal-lobotomy. http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3182&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1925&yrend=2009" rel="nofollow - 1985 Ski 1984 SW |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-26-2007 at 7:46am
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Chris, Forgot to mention that you should get a new 40 amp breaker. The themally tripped types can weaken (hold less current) after multiple trips. They have a bimetalic spring that heats up with current that seems to loose the original setting.
Is the 78 equiped with a volt or amp meter? My 77 has a amp meter and I seem to think it's right around the time they changed to the volts. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Poster112
Date Posted: March-26-2007 at 8:58am
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Yes, I've got an amp meter in the dash. I've already ordered a new 40 amp breaker. JEFF KOSTIS mentioned a "current meter" is that the same thing as my amp meter? ------------- I'd rather have a bottle-in-front-of-me than a frontal-lobotomy. http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3182&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1925&yrend=2009" rel="nofollow - 1985 Ski 1984 SW |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-26-2007 at 9:23am
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Yes, The amp meter is measuring current. The reason I asked if you had the amp meter is to find out if you were watching it before the breaker pops and to see what the amps are. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Poster112
Date Posted: March-26-2007 at 11:32am
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After I figured out that it was the circuit breaker, I watched it pretty closely. The max on the meter is 40 and the needle pushed 30 when accelerating, but I don't think that it went above that. I'll run it in the driveway and post what it does.
Thanks. ------------- I'd rather have a bottle-in-front-of-me than a frontal-lobotomy. http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3182&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1925&yrend=2009" rel="nofollow - 1985 Ski 1984 SW |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-26-2007 at 11:54am
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What is the condition of your battery? Even a 30 amp draw is on the high side. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Poster112
Date Posted: March-26-2007 at 12:45pm
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Good question. I have not replaced it or recharged it, and seems strong when cranking. I removed it during the winter, so it was not connected. I'll double check the amp reading. ------------- I'd rather have a bottle-in-front-of-me than a frontal-lobotomy. http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3182&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1925&yrend=2009" rel="nofollow - 1985 Ski 1984 SW |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-26-2007 at 1:16pm
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I'm just tring to figure out where 30 amps is going. Trying to eliminate some posibilities ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: JEFF KOSTIS
Date Posted: March-26-2007 at 9:43pm
8122, what I mean by the meter not being accurate is that the breaker does hold for a while and then trips after time. The current going through it is significant and if you calculate it. The resistance would be like .05 ohms and those meters wont read that. Yes, most have a "zero feature" but usually only read in tenths of ohms. I have meters that are almost $300 and they are not designed for that purpose. I have clamp on DC current meters for that purpose and if you measure the current and the voltage across the breaker, you can get exactly how much resistance you have loosing as heat(watts). Enough techno for now. 112,if you have a correctly wired ammeter in the dash (all wiring is factory), it will reveal charging current into the battery only as well as the current being sucked from the battery. It wont tell you what the load is across the breaker. I do think the breaker or connections are just bad from guessing. If you want to take the time to "troubleshoot" the system to be sure, all you need to do is to remove the ammeter from the dash, and tie the removed wires from the ammeter together with a #10 screw and nut. Then unhook the the wire(s) from one side of the 40A breaker and connect to one of the posts of the ammeter. Then use a short piece of #10 or larger wire to connect from the breaker to the other post on the ammeter. In other words, You are basically hooking the breaker in series with the ammeter. Dont be fooled by the extra lug on the ammeter for the backlighting as it might confuse you. You then will be able to read the actual current. Be sure to unhook the batt and be sure nothing shorts out. If you have extra $$$ and want to get a clamp on DC current/multimeter they are just under $200 for a decent Greenlee brand. Clamp on means all you have to do is clamp the meter end around the wire without doing anything to the wire. It also serves as your everyday multimeter as well. Jeff... ------------- MUSTANG COUNTRY http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1074 - 1974 Mustang 17 http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1093 - 1976 Mustang 17 |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-27-2007 at 6:38am
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Jeff, I totally agree that a clamp-on would be ideal but am just trying to give 112 the inexpensive way to check his loads. I'm trying to get him to ohm out his loads and not resistence in the breakers. A 5 amp load @ 12 volts is going to read 2.4 ohms. Am I correct or am I missing something? The cheap volt / ohm meters will read that. Besides, I think they are a great tool to have around the house.
This whole problem could just be a bad breaker as the thermal breakers are not the most reliable type and are subject to the ambient air temp. The 40 may be of marginal size and a steady load close to the 40 amp rating plus the air temp may have just pushed it past it's limit. Unless someone has done some rewiring, the installed amp meter will give total loads since they all go through the meter. Jeff, OK, sorry, now I got it. You're worried about the cheap meter being able to read LOW enough. Since most loads are in the 4-6 amp range, you should be able to tell a near 0 ohm compared to a 3 ohm reading with the meter set on the 20 ohm range. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Poster112
Date Posted: March-27-2007 at 8:42am
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Yeah, I'm not too excited about spending $200 on a clamp on meter, though my father has one down in FL. Maybe I'll have him send it to me.
So JEFF, you are saying to remove the ammeter from the dash and run it directly into the breaker? Pete, you are saying that the reading while in the dash will say the same thing? I can pull it out and use it right on the breaker with no problem, but what am I looking for? Another thing, I've got something installed in the bilge that has a wire going to it and I do not know what it is. It is about 3" diameter round mounted onto the bottom of the bilge directly opposite the raw water pick up. I'll post a photo later today. ------------- I'd rather have a bottle-in-front-of-me than a frontal-lobotomy. http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3182&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1925&yrend=2009" rel="nofollow - 1985 Ski 1984 SW |
Posted By: Poster112
Date Posted: March-27-2007 at 1:38pm
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Oh, I do know that this mystery thing is not a pump. ------------- I'd rather have a bottle-in-front-of-me than a frontal-lobotomy. http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3182&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1925&yrend=2009" rel="nofollow - 1985 Ski 1984 SW |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-27-2007 at 3:36pm
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112, I wasn't going to say anything in reference to a bilge pump!! That would have been too obvious but we have had stranger questions posted!!
Like I said before,unless someone changed the wiring, the amp meter in the dash is going to give you a total + or - reading. What Jeff is suggesting is putting a amp meter in series with the 40 amp breaker to see the load going through it but I feel that it is your master breaker anyway. Take a look at the wiring diagram and confirm that it is the master. You should have the main wire coming from the alternator to the breaker then to the dash amp meter then to the ignition switch and then to everthing else on the boat. OK, we need to see a picture of the mystery 3" round thingy in the bilge. You have got me wondering what it could be! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Poster112
Date Posted: March-27-2007 at 5:32pm
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Here's the photos of the mystery device, the hole from underneath the hull and inside the hole from underneath (kinda fuzzy) and the amp gauge at idle and at 2500 RPMs. The gauge is connected to the alternator and from one side of the red 40 amp button breaker.
Mystery device: 
Close up: 
Hole in hull from underneath: 
Inside hole underneath: 
Amp gauge at Idle: 
Amp gauge at 2500 RPM: 
Amps above idle are lower that I originally stated. From memory, I thought that there were three lines between the 0 and 40 and I was hitting the third. This shows around 20. ------------- I'd rather have a bottle-in-front-of-me than a frontal-lobotomy. http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3182&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1925&yrend=2009" rel="nofollow - 1985 Ski 1984 SW |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-27-2007 at 6:24pm
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That's a transducer for a depth finder.
How old is the battery? Does the amp meter go down after running it for awhile? Put in the new breaker and Jeff may be correct that thats it. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Poster112
Date Posted: March-27-2007 at 6:41pm
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Yeah, I thought that it was part of a depth finder. There is no upper part of it anywhere in the boat. I guess that it was removed. Obviously can't remove that part. The amps settle down a bit after running. Battery age is unknown. My replacement breaker was shipped out yesterday. I'll put it in and cross my fingers next time I go out.
Thanks, again for the advice, Pete and JEFF. ------------- I'd rather have a bottle-in-front-of-me than a frontal-lobotomy. http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3182&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1925&yrend=2009" rel="nofollow - 1985 Ski 1984 SW |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-27-2007 at 8:08pm
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112, A new battery may be in order. It may have a intermitent internal short that would cause the breaker to trip. The amp meter should go down to near 0 after the engine has run. A marine battery really takes a beating. Is there a date code on it? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: JEFF KOSTIS
Date Posted: March-27-2007 at 9:14pm
Aw, I hate to hear that!! NO WAY do I want ya to die out and get towed by a underdog. The only way to tell your load from the dash ammeter is by having the engine off and key on while you have all your accessories on and see what the ammeter reads. Of course its going to read discharge. Running the engine will only tell you what the battery is charging at....not the load being drawn. When the battery becomes fully charged the ammeter will read zero. As far as the battery goes, if it gives you no trouble there is no need to replace it. A weak battery WILL NOT cause the breaker to trip. The only purpose of the battery is to initially crank the engine. After its running, the only purpose of the baterry is to be a giant capacitor (filter) where the alternator is providing all the power. A $40 multimeter like Pete said is certainly handy as you might want to check you batt voltage as well with the engine on and make sure its not like 16volts as that would cause a problem too. Usually though, if this were to happen your ammeter would always show its charging. A last resort crude test is to run the boat and feel if the old breaker gets warm, and how long it takes. Then install the new breaker and do the same. If the new breaker runs cool in comparison to the old given the same time, you probably found the problem. Isnt this fun?? Pete, someday I can give ya a call and explain everything as it would take 10 pages on here and might upset the applecart. Shoot me a email when you get a minute. I need a another technician up here if youre interested!!!
Jeff... ------------- MUSTANG COUNTRY http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1074 - 1974 Mustang 17 http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1093 - 1976 Mustang 17 |
Posted By: JEFF KOSTIS
Date Posted: March-27-2007 at 9:38pm
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112, after looking and re-reading the pics you posted, the ammeter at 20 amps means your charging the battery at 20 amps. It better drop down with time and then go to zero while keeping the engine at the same RPMs. If not, get yourself a voltmeter (mulimeter that pete was sayin) and check the batt voltage while running at a fast idle. BTW, I dont respond during the day as I am only on at night as I am not around a computer during the day...
Jeff... ------------- MUSTANG COUNTRY http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1074 - 1974 Mustang 17 http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1093 - 1976 Mustang 17 |
Posted By: Poster112
Date Posted: March-27-2007 at 11:05pm
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JEFF, I got a mutimeter the other day. I'll run it longer tomorrow afternoon, and watch the ammeter and I'll check battery voltage with the multimeter at a fast idle and post the results. By the way, when I checked the breaker for resistance, I got inconsistent readings. The contacts on the old breaker do not seem to be conducting well.
Thanks. Chris ------------- I'd rather have a bottle-in-front-of-me than a frontal-lobotomy. http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3182&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1925&yrend=2009" rel="nofollow - 1985 Ski 1984 SW |
Posted By: Poster112
Date Posted: March-28-2007 at 8:38pm
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Okay. With engine off and key off- at battery the multimeter read 12.21. With key on it also read 12.21: cycling on accessories it went down to 11.83 with nav lights, horn, blower, and bilge all on. Blower made the biggest difference. Same with key on and engine off, amp meter barely moved other than when blower was on. At idle, meter read 12.23 at the battery. At 2000 RPMs the meter slowly climbed and peaked at 13.71 and stayed there. The amp meter stayed at the 20 line the entire time that I ran it (approx. 5 min). The breaker heated up plenty to the touch in that 5 minutes. While at 2000 RPM, when I hit the blower, the dash ammeter jumped down quite a bit and went right back up when i turned the blower off.
I did notice that my nav light 3 position switch is wired so that either the bow light is on or the guage lights are on or both are off. It seems that the bow and guage lights should turn on at the same time, but they do not. I have no idea whether this makes a difference, but am trying to mention everything. I have yet to hook the dash ammeter in circuit with the breaker. If this is still recommended, I will do it tomorrow. Thanks guys! ------------- I'd rather have a bottle-in-front-of-me than a frontal-lobotomy. http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3182&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1925&yrend=2009" rel="nofollow - 1985 Ski 1984 SW |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-29-2007 at 9:26am
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The amp meter should have at least started to come down from 20 after 5 min. I really think your problem may still be battery or charging related. Put the amp meter in line with the breaker and see what it says.
The nav. light switch is wired wrong. It should turn on the nav. lights and gauge lights at the same time in one position and the stern light only in the 3rd position which is "at anchor". The jump you saw with amps when you turned on the blower is normal since it is the inrush current required to get the blower going. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Poster112
Date Posted: March-29-2007 at 10:11am
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Thanks, Pete. I knew the lights seemed wrong. It would seem, by the amps staying high after a period of time, that the battery is continually charging, which is heating up the breaker. Can the alternator force a charge to the batt or would the batt have to be "pulling" that charge? ------------- I'd rather have a bottle-in-front-of-me than a frontal-lobotomy. http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3182&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1925&yrend=2009" rel="nofollow - 1985 Ski 1984 SW |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-29-2007 at 10:42am
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Could be the battery. Thats why I inquired about its age. I have seen bad batteries that will still turn the engine over. Can you put it on a charger and see what happens? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Poster112
Date Posted: March-29-2007 at 10:48am
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Yeah. I've got a charger. I'll give it a try. ------------- I'd rather have a bottle-in-front-of-me than a frontal-lobotomy. http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3182&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1925&yrend=2009" rel="nofollow - 1985 Ski 1984 SW |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-29-2007 at 11:13am
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Disconnect the battery when you put it on the charger. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: JEFF KOSTIS
Date Posted: March-29-2007 at 8:07pm
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A current meter inline with the breaker is the only true way to troubleshoot without guessing.
Jeff... ------------- MUSTANG COUNTRY http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1074 - 1974 Mustang 17 http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1093 - 1976 Mustang 17 |
Posted By: Poster112
Date Posted: March-29-2007 at 8:37pm
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Jeff, I'm going to hook the current meter from the dash in line tomorrow. What am I looking for it to do? As you can see it is not well graduated other than the -40, 0 and +40 with the two halfway marks. Am I running the engine with it on there (looking for charge), with just the key on (discharge) or both? Also, which side of the breaker should it go on? Does it matter?
Chris ------------- I'd rather have a bottle-in-front-of-me than a frontal-lobotomy. http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3182&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1925&yrend=2009" rel="nofollow - 1985 Ski 1984 SW |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-30-2007 at 6:48am
112, Below is a 70's pcm wiring diagram. Is it like the one you have? Were is the 40 amp breaker?
Jeff, This diagram shows that all loads and battery charging go through the amp meter or tell me if I'm missing something again!! Again thanks for bringing up the fact that a cheap volt / olm meter many not read low enough ohms. I guess I'm used to using my DMM and didn't think about it before recomending buying a $40 meter. Typically I'm at higher voltages which helps with ohms law too. I usually don't see anything less than 24 volts nominal and that would only be on PLC'c. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 6strings
Date Posted: March-30-2007 at 8:34am
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Pete,
Looking at the diagram, I can't read what it says at the ameter. I can see "wire end taped if no ameter is used" but the other, "red to _______". Do you know what that says??? I can read everything else. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-30-2007 at 8:55am
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It says "red to ign. switch" which would be the bat. terminal ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 6strings
Date Posted: March-30-2007 at 2:58pm
| Great. Thanks Pete. |
Posted By: Poster112
Date Posted: March-30-2007 at 5:50pm
Pete, here is the breaker location:
 ------------- I'd rather have a bottle-in-front-of-me than a frontal-lobotomy. http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3182&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1925&yrend=2009" rel="nofollow - 1985 Ski 1984 SW |
Posted By: Poster112
Date Posted: March-30-2007 at 7:33pm
|
So I hooked the amp gauge to both sides of the breaker and got slightly lower readings when the engine was running than before. I must say that after running at 2000 RPMs, it read just below 20. After I backed off the RPMs, idled for a while, then brought it back up to 2000 RPMs, the gauge read about 5 amps lower than before. I hope that this is a good thing. ------------- I'd rather have a bottle-in-front-of-me than a frontal-lobotomy. http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3182&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1925&yrend=2009" rel="nofollow - 1985 Ski 1984 SW |
Posted By: JEFF KOSTIS
Date Posted: March-30-2007 at 10:29pm
|
8122, this is a weird diagram as I am pretty sure its messed up. First you are right about all the loads going through the ammeter. The diagram cant be right because the way they show it, you would show charging current as total load being drawn from the alternator including battery charging combined. Being wired this way, your current meter will never creep to zero. Also, it would not show ANY discharge current. In oreder to be correct, the right side post of the ammeter in the pic would would have to have a direct line to the "batt term" on the ign key and NOT going from "batt term" direct to the battery like it now shows. Then the a direct line from the battery would have to go to the left post on the pic of the ammeter. I wish I had 112 intelligence on how to "draw" on the diagram as I suck at computers!!
112, did you just add the ammeter across the breaker without unhooking anything??? If so, you need to unhook the wires on one side of the breaker (doesnt matter which) and put the ammeter in series with it. Jeff... wow! I think I need a beer.... ------------- MUSTANG COUNTRY http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1074 - 1974 Mustang 17 http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1093 - 1976 Mustang 17 |
Posted By: Poster112
Date Posted: March-31-2007 at 8:54am
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I put it in series. I unhooked the wire going to the breaker and put it on one ammeter post and used 10 gauge from the other post to the breaker.
Also, here is how mine is wired, as far as I can track it without undoing a bunch of tape. I cannot yet tell where the small wire from alternator is going. It looks the like my ammeter is wired differently than in the diagram, as my ammeter is also hooked to the solenoid through the breaker. Is that right or could that be the problem?  ------------- I'd rather have a bottle-in-front-of-me than a frontal-lobotomy. http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3182&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1925&yrend=2009" rel="nofollow - 1985 Ski 1984 SW |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-31-2007 at 12:39pm
|
Jeff, The wiring diagram is right out of the PCM manuel. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-31-2007 at 4:23pm
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112,I'm strugling with your sketch!! OK, you said you have a wiring diagram. Is it the same one as the one I posted? Jeff says it's different and your sketch is different.
What happened when you put the battery on the charger? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Poster112
Date Posted: March-31-2007 at 6:19pm
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Battery took some charge. I have not put it back in though to test (thunderstorms).
The wiring diagram that I have is the one that you posted. I gave you the wrong location of the breaker earlier. Here is the correct location. The 10 gauge wire from the alternator goes to one post of the ammeter. From that same post, a 10 gauge wire goes to the breaker and from the breaker to the solenoid. The other post of the ammeter has a 10 gauge wire going to the ignition switch. The diagram says that wire is supposed to be "clipped" if ammeter is used. Does that mean no connection there? Mine definitely has a wire there from the ammeter and alternator to the solenoid with a circuit breaker in-line:  ------------- I'd rather have a bottle-in-front-of-me than a frontal-lobotomy. http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3182&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1925&yrend=2009" rel="nofollow - 1985 Ski 1984 SW |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-31-2007 at 6:47pm
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112, Do you have the red wire from the ign. switch to the solinoid?
Does it look like the breaker was added and not original? The battery charger you have, does it have a amp meter on it and did it taper down to dear zero? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Poster112
Date Posted: March-31-2007 at 9:26pm
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I believe that the wire from ignition directly to solenoid is white and not 10 gauge. It is smaller. The only red wire connected to ignition switch is the wire from the ammeter. It is the only 10 gauge wire connected to the switch.
I cannot tell for sure if the breaker is original or not. I think not. The engine is original and I do not know if '78 351w Commanders came with them. The bracket that it is attached to is VERY clean, though. The previous owner also replaced the voltage regulator (I think that is what it is. It says "short circuit protected" on it). Here is the photo of it with a big blue box on the rear of the bracket. That blue box has been replaced by a 2 inch by 3 inch shiny silver box that says "Short circuit protected" on it. 
It really is a Commander, by the way. It just has PCM manifolds on it My battery charger is not one with an amp meter, per se. It's a cheap one with a light "scale" indicating level of charge. It started on the very bottom when I first hooked it up and climbed as it charged. It may start on the lowest level, by default. ------------- I'd rather have a bottle-in-front-of-me than a frontal-lobotomy. http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3182&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1925&yrend=2009" rel="nofollow - 1985 Ski 1984 SW |
Posted By: JEFF KOSTIS
Date Posted: March-31-2007 at 10:44pm
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8122 see what I mean about the PCM diagram being innacurate?? See how you can disconnect the ammeter completely and still run everything except you will get output from the alternator.
112, if the sketch you drew is correct, that isnt right either, but shouldnt blow the breaker. The most it would do is the ammeter would read just the current being used by the ign switch. This also assumes that the wire you have drawn from the ign sw to the solenoid isnt battery power, but connected to the small post on the solenoid (coil). couple of questions...Would be nice to know first why the breaker heats and trips. You confirmed 20A on the ammeter when put in series with the breaker. 20A should be fine and it shouldnt heat up. Is the breaker new?? Did you replace it yet?? Also, can you recall when everything was hooked up to original, and you had the engine and key off, would the ammeter go to "discharge"??? Jeff... ------------- MUSTANG COUNTRY http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1074 - 1974 Mustang 17 http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1093 - 1976 Mustang 17 |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: April-01-2007 at 4:13am
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Poster, is the picture above of the engine in your boat? If so it looks very nice. My question is...why haven't you upgraded to an alternator with an internal regulator and replaced that ammeter with a more reliable voltmeter. Your electrical problem would be much simpler to troubleshoot this way if not done away with. I can provide you with a wiring diagram for this modification if you'd like. It would also clean up some clutter in your engine compartment. Brian ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: Poster112
Date Posted: April-01-2007 at 10:07am
|
Nutty, Yes that is my engine. I cannot take credit for the appearance, though. Previous owner rebuilt and painted. I'm all for the diagram and upgrade. I just know very little about electrical systems (though I've learned a lot while trouble shooting this problem).
JEFF, the ammeter does show discharge when the engine is off and key is on. The wire from ing. to solenoid does not seem to be battery power and is hooked to the small post. My wiring appears to be the same as the diagram other than where the ammeter is placed and the breaker. I have not yet replaced breaker, though I did get one. Today I am putting in a freshly charged battery and see what that does. If it does not help, I'll finally install the new breaker. ------------- I'd rather have a bottle-in-front-of-me than a frontal-lobotomy. http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3182&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1925&yrend=2009" rel="nofollow - 1985 Ski 1984 SW |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-01-2007 at 11:44am
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Jeff, It sounds more and more like your wiring method is what 112 has. This has gotten real confusing!! Did CC wire differently than the PCM wiring diagram? Has someone changed the wiring?
112, Put the new breaker in and you have a fully charged battery now then see what happens. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Poster112
Date Posted: April-01-2007 at 11:50am
Fresh breaker seems to have solved it. I put in freshly charged battery and had a hard time getting it running. One running with old breaker, it went up to 20 amps at 2000 rpms and stayed there. After I replaced the breaker, It initially went up to 20 amps and then came right down to below 10 and I could not get it back above 10  . I guess that this settles it?
Thanks, fellows. I learned a bunch from you guys and now have a lot more confidence in trouble shooting electrical probs. This is why I did not take into a shop. They would have just fixed it and I would have learned nothing. I hope that I can return the favor some time. Obviously, it won't be in the form of engine repair advice
Chris ------------- I'd rather have a bottle-in-front-of-me than a frontal-lobotomy. http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3182&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1925&yrend=2009" rel="nofollow - 1985 Ski 1984 SW |
Posted By: 6strings
Date Posted: April-01-2007 at 2:11pm
|
Great Chris. I agree on the learning thing. There's alot more satisfaction on knowing why something isn't working and how to fix it.
Nutty, I would definetly be interested in the wiring diagram you mentioned. My 76 has had the one wire alternator change over but all the old wires and regulator are still in place with clipped wires. I'd like to go through it all and remove the old wire remnents and make sure the rest is up to date, including a main breaker. I'd also like to clean up my dash wiring since replacing the ammeter with voltmeter. It sounds as if I can eliminate a couple of wires that are still in place. Thanks everyone for all the knowledge sharing! |
Posted By: JEFF KOSTIS
Date Posted: April-01-2007 at 9:45pm
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112, glad to see the breaker cured it. I was wondering if you changed it and couldnt figure out why 20 amps would heat it up. Troubleshooting these things can get a bit stressfull and was amazed by your persistance and patients.
8122, I have seen quite a few schematics/wiring diagrams that have errors. I think the error is when they tried to mix volt and ammeter wiring methods on the same diagram. Id be more than happy to explain anything you have questions on or uncertain about. Its hard to put this stuff into words. Anyone going to the New England reunion?? It would be cool to sketch some crazy ideas on paper with your next beer as a paper weight. 6Strings, I agree with you on learning. Would be nice to utilize the "extra" wires since converting the alternator and using them to your advantage without ripping it out. Cool post guys!! Jeff... ------------- MUSTANG COUNTRY http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1074 - 1974 Mustang 17 http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1093 - 1976 Mustang 17 |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: April-03-2007 at 11:45am
------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: April-03-2007 at 11:47am
I'm going to try to post this wiring diagram on this site. If this doesn't work I can fax it to anyone here who is interested. ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: 6strings
Date Posted: April-03-2007 at 12:34pm
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Nutty,
Excellent! If you need to fax it: 812-597-0699. Many thanks. Walt |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: April-03-2007 at 4:05pm
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6, the image size is too large to upload. I'll fax it too you and see if that works. Maybe someone else on here can give me some help sending this out to all who want it. Also, give me your e-mail address and I'll try to send it that way as well. Brian ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: 6strings
Date Posted: April-03-2007 at 5:07pm
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Brian,
Sure, here's my email: comtor@netzero.com Thanks again, Walt |