Replaced the Pro-Tec system
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7416
Printed Date: September-27-2024 at 1:49pm
Topic: Replaced the Pro-Tec system
Posted By: eklock
Subject: Replaced the Pro-Tec system
Date Posted: July-09-2007 at 2:24am
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For 15 years my '91 SN performed flawlessly, then last summer it suffered from an intermittant no-spark condition. I cleaned the terminals, checked for loose connections and found nothing unusual except for the 3rd Grade wiring job behind the gauges.
I hate being stranded on the water so I made the decision to fix the problem before it got worse. I read every thread I could find related to the issue, I called SkiDIM and talked to them about their retro-fit kit and parts for the Pro-Tec system. I soon concluded that it would be easier to replace the Pro-Tec ignition system than to hunt down replacement parts that may suffer the same fate only a few years from now. I wanted a stand-alone distributor. I wanted a simple 3-wire hook up. I did not want a ballast resistor. I wanted a quality product equal to the craftsmanship of the boat. I wanted 90° plug boots at both ends with HEI style connectors. I wanted the whole package to look good (as if it came from the factory). So for her 16th birthday I gave my girl a new MSD Pro-Billet distributor, MSD off-road/marine high vibration coil mounted in a Rex Marine billet coil bracket, a set of Super Conductor 8.5mm plug wires and while I was at it I added an addition 10ga ground wire from the voltmeter to the battery. All I can is WOW! I should have made these changes the day I bought the boat new. It starts quicker and idles smoother than it ever has, even when new. My wife, who could care less about an engine even commented on nice it ran. I would like to thank all CCF members for posting and contributing to this site, I would've been shooting in the dark had it not been for the valuable information that I found here. Here's a picture of the distributor, the album has a few more as well: [IMG http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2964749980100738978AANsnn">  ][/IMG]
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Replies:
Posted By: Lorenr
Date Posted: July-09-2007 at 5:12am
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I had exactly the same problem with my Pro Tech Ignition system. To compound the problem I couldn't get any reliable infomation about the system from any dealer or even on the internet.
The icing on the cake was when the local dealer wanted me to truck the whole boat to the next state and they MIGHT work on it. Like you I found the whole system to be a bad joke. I installed nearly the same stuff as you. (MSD 6, not the marine one, MSD Billet Distributor, not the marine one and an Blaster SS coil. What a difference and anyone can install and maintain it. When I used to drag race there were quite a few MSD products used. Quality stuff and good company to work with. By the way go on the internet and get a good used MSD 6 as a back up. That is probably the only thing that could go bad. You can send the one in for factory repair and still be in business I've seen nearly new MSD 6's go for $75.00 ------------- Lorenr |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: July-09-2007 at 9:15am
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So why did you install a NON-MARINE GRADE DISTRIBUTOR? not very smart to have no spark arresting features on the dist. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: Lorenr
Date Posted: July-09-2007 at 3:03pm
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What Spark?
All the distributor does is use an electronic signal from the distribtor to the MSD box. The box then sends a signal to the coil. From there the spark in the wires is nearly the same (except for the gasket on the distributor cap) The spark plug wires can leak in both marine and non marine applications. I noticed that there was a marine pro billet distributor but can't imagine how it could be worth $100.00 more. That said, I'll bet it has a gasket for the distributor cap. If something goes wrong with the distributor cap, good luck waiting for a replacement. The carburetor is another issue. There used to be differences, but today, besides price I think all it is is vent tube design. If you smell fuel find out what is wrong before you start the motor. ------------- Lorenr |
Posted By: eklock
Date Posted: July-09-2007 at 6:40pm
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79nautique- MSD does not make a marine approved distributor for the 351w, only for GM's BBF and Oldsmobile. Their technician explained that the only difference in the marine units was a breather hole on the bottom of the housing, and that they payed for the USCG approval on other models. All of their distributors are vented through the cap. All of the internal components are identical.
Lorenr- Not all MSD distributors require an ignition box, I am not running a 6A or 6AL but I plan on adding one later this Fall as my budget allows. The billet housing of the MSD distributor is a work of art, the machined surfaces fit together with amazing precision. The cap is 3/8in thick in some locations, and the rotor is counter balanced to reduce vibration. The advance curve is easily adjustable and I calibrated mine to deliver 32° total advance at 3000rpm. The plug wires are 8.5mm good luck having a spark jump across that insulation. If I was really worried about sparks causing a fire I'd gut the entire harness and rewire the instrument cluster completely. That's going to be my winter time project. That rigging is an embarrasment to the manufacture. |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: July-09-2007 at 11:11pm
So just because it is vented in the cap doesn't mine sh*t it still as no flame arresting features to prevent the ignition of fuel vapors. Most likely is it also vented around the base of the cap where the fumes can enter. oh well if it blows up it blows up not my boat and not a boat I wil be riding in ever. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
eklock wrote:Posted By: eklock
Date Posted: July-10-2007 at 1:59am
| It's funny that you should be so consumed by fear of a non-marine distributor; the original PT unit that I pulled out did not have a spark arrestor either. |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: July-10-2007 at 2:16am
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all you pulled out was an oil pump drive, nothing in it to produce a spark to ignite the gas fumes smarty.
Please don't try and discuss the finer points of a DIS system(pro-tech) vs a Mechnical Distributor with me, I'm very well versed on that subject if you want to verify it go look under the hood of any 90's era Quad-4, Northstar or Chevy INDY motors and if your fortunate enought to ever see the drawings you'll see my name listed in the tilte block after the Drawn By heading. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: eklock
Date Posted: July-10-2007 at 12:45pm
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Now your bragging, you don't need to demonstrate your arrogance to me I could see it from your first post.
The Q4 and NS motors are quite impressive if you had anything to do with their development I tip my hat to you. I'm not sure that I understand how a vent hole with a screen in it will prevent the ignition of fumes. The fumes will still exist inside the distributor, they will ignite there if sufficient spark is generated from the rotor-to-terminal contact and the whole distributor will detonate. If the engine cover is down and the whole box is a death cloud of fumes due to a leak or similar any metal-to-metal contact like the throttle cable to caburetor linkage with light the candle anyway. It'd be interesting to see some statistical data on the number of boat fires caused by automotive style ignition systems. |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: July-10-2007 at 12:59pm
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Do some research before flapping. Look up flame arrestor.
Talk about arrogance, Do you have kids in that boat? Somebody elses? And no arcs in a distributer, what a hoot. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: July-10-2007 at 1:19pm
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The vent holes in the base of an MSD marine distributor has a brass screen and as we all all know, brass does not create spark. It also has something different in the cap itself because the marine cap and the standard MSD cap are definitely different. I assume it must be something with the terminal posts and probably the metal used in them. It doesn't have a gasket either as Lorenr stated. It is true that a marine cap is harder to come by than a standard cap. I just keep a spare handy in my workbench at all times. When I replace the cap, I order a new one from Summit. I have it in two days. No big deal. Then it sits on my bench for a couple years until I need it again. It's called planning. The color plastic in the marine cap is dark maroon. Standard MSD caps are red so maybe there is something different in that also. My dist. specifically states that ONLY the marine cap can be used on it. It's keyed so I would have to assume that the standard MSD caps/distributors are keyed different than the marine version to make them sailor proof. Maybe the internals are the same, I don't know, but there is obviously other differences that must have made USCG approval other than "paying for them". ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: July-10-2007 at 2:23pm
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Good info backfoot.I'd love to use the MSD dist too but the Windsor fans are out, I'm not that <insert adjective here> to use the automotive. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: July-10-2007 at 10:23pm
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well on a marine application the flame arresting screens that are in the vent holes are multi-layer so that a flame will go out as it passes through and will not get outside of the air space under the cap. The standard screen is a single layer that a flame can pas through and ignit the rest of the fumes in the motor box. And there is always a almost constant arc occur inside of the cap the pause is so small it might as well be constant.
The issue is on start up and start up only, after it's going then the odds are greatly reduced unless something major occurs under the hood. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: eklock
Date Posted: July-11-2007 at 1:05am
| Not quite the same, but if one were to pack the cap vent with brass wool it would limit the limit the risk of vapor ignition. The trick is keeping the wool in the vent and not falling down upon the rotor. |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: July-11-2007 at 1:22am
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don't try that it will never last and all you will end up doing is trashing the dist because of it. Just raise the motor box before every time you start it and you can get by until the DNR or USCG get you for a non-marine dist. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: eklock
Date Posted: July-11-2007 at 1:31am
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DNR? Not sure what that is. USCG, I've never been on a Federally patrolled body of water.
Sorry for causing all of the upheaval over this issue. |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: July-11-2007 at 1:36am
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just an education for you on what can and will happen if fumes accumulate.
DNR= department of nautral resources, i.e. conservation officer ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: July-11-2007 at 11:55am
eklock, what we're trying to convey here is a few different things. The USCG sets regulations and standards on marine vehicles that require specially modified distibutors, alternators, starters, fuel pumps and carburators. The boat left the factory meeting those standards. You could be easily pulled over and stopped for a safety check at any time while operting your boat by the DNR on any body of water that the USCG doesn't patrol. I've personally been stopped numerous times. They normally check for adequate life preservers, fire extinguisher, driver drinking etc. They can also look at the engine and if there is a knowledgable ranger that knows what he's looking at, he can tell if your boat has been modified and that it still meets or doesn't meet USCG safety standards. If it doesn't, you can be required to make any appropriate changes to make it legal on top of a fine. Now the bigger concern is the safety for you, your passengers and family. These standards aren't put out there so the USCG can be a**holes. They have a purpose. The biggest one of which is fire prevention in a marine vessel. I've said before that a fuel leak from a fuel pump or carb in a car just runs onto the road and evaporates away. A fuel leak in a boat dumps into the bildge and just sits there waiting for a spark from a dist. alternator or starter. If that happens, let me tell you that a 19' SN can go up in flames in seconds. Not a pretty sight. There are numerous guys that have put regular auto parts on boats and haven't had issues and maybe never will. How important is that $100 extra that you saved by not buying a marine dist. when your boat is engulfed in flames? Or worse yet, if somebody gets hurt or dies? Here's another thing. If you have a really good insurance agent who knows his stuff, and upon inspection of a boat disaster notices that aftermarket non-conforming parts were put in the boat, they could easily deny your claim. Granted, these are worse case scenarios, but entirely possible. Using USCG certified carbs and fuel pumps help prevent the fuel from getting in the bilge first. If it still does happen, USCG approved distributors, alternators and starters prevent the spark to ignite that fuel. Nothing is foolproof, but why add to your chances to save a few hundred bucks? ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: eklock
Date Posted: July-11-2007 at 11:05pm
| Via email I asked MSD if they had any intentions of ever making a marine dist. for the 351w. Their response was to buy the BBF marine dist. and replace the drive gear (they sell them sperately) with one for a 351w. They assured me that the only difference between the 460 and 351w distributors was the drive gears. I have yet to verify this but they seem to be confident in their statement. |
Posted By: The Dude
Date Posted: July-12-2007 at 1:26am
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geez ------------- Mullet Free since 93 http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=717&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1991&yrend=1995 - 95 Sport |
Posted By: David F
Date Posted: July-12-2007 at 12:55pm
Well that AND it provide crankshaft position and magnetically triggers the ignition. Still no spark in that dude...unless the sensor shorts out and catches fire  ------------- |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: July-13-2007 at 1:10am
I got confirmation of this from a guru on a pantera forum, they know cleveland/windsor swaps as well as anyone. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: July-13-2007 at 11:31am
That's interesting. You would think that the amount of Windsor users looking for a marine MSD distributor that MSD would state something like that in their documentation and the website. I would think that they would sell quite a few more distributors. Every Windsor user that I know of looking for that option has been so disappointed that it wasn't available. Good stuff. ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: July-14-2007 at 12:28am
Is the 351W drive gear you're refering to for a reverse rotating engine? If not you maight be back to square one. ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: eklock
Date Posted: May-16-2008 at 2:51am
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You guys will be happy to know that I have since returned my distributor to MSD. They changed the base, added screens, O-rings and a new cap; a full marine conversion. The fee? $79.00 plus shipping.
If I had it to do over again I would buy a 460/429 marine distributor and change the drive gear. Much simpler that way. I really like the top-notch quality of the MSD Pro-Billet distributor. No regrets. I'm sorry for all of the perceived arrogance, it was never intented. |
Posted By: tommer12
Date Posted: May-16-2008 at 3:19pm
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Hey eklock, can you post the parts list you used to replace the protech?
I'm looking at replacing the protech as well. It's $400 from skidim (with that nice 10 percent discount from here!) but I wanted to see if it was cheaper to build it myself from the local performance shop that specializes in marine apps, etc. Wait for it.. wait for it... I hear 79nautique ready to chime in right? (only jokes, you have great input always!) |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: May-16-2008 at 3:58pm
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my question would be how you are planning on addressing the wiring hraness changes? the dist is a no brainer, but needs to be compatable with the ECU's logic. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: eklock
Date Posted: May-21-2008 at 4:58am
I'm not quite understanding you. With the ProTec system there is a knock sensor and a rev limiter. I talked to SkiDim about the wiring harness used with the Mallory dist. and it was explained to me that the knock sensor is left in place as a dummy with no wire going to it. I don't have a knock sensor nor a rev limiter, but I plan to add an MSD ignition module that has one in the near future. All other gauges and audible alarms function as normal. I used the factory wire harness with only a few easy modifications. I unwrapped the factory harness and removed the wire for the knock sensor. I did this because I wanted a "clean" installation without any unconnected terminals. I removed the knock sensor replacing it with a brass plug. I took the loom of wires that leads to the ECU and removed them from the harness. The only wire I cut was that for the tach lead. The factory tach lead is molded into the ECU. Following the wiring diagram for the ProTech system I located the tach lead which is a gray wire if I remember correctly. I cut that wire at the ECU module leaving enough length on the engine side to solder a terminal that would attach to the coil. I installed a keyed-hot lead from the 50A breaker terminal to the coil. I used the same keyed-hot terminal that the ECU/coil pack was powered by; again using the ProTec wiring diagram. The MSD coil is now wired to the same power souce as the ProTec coils. Once the ProTech system is removed the harness looks very similar to that of earlier CC's. At least by looking at the diagrams available for download. I mounted the coil on the bracket originally used for the ECU/coil pack with a billet mount from Rex Marine. Mine is polished, if I had it to do over again I'd opt for red anodized. The whole installation took about two hours one evening after work. I spent more time re-wrapping the harness and tucking it away neatly inside corrugated loom. My soldered terminals are sealed with shrink tubing. Actually I spent more time diagnosing the ProTec system than I did replacing it. |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: June-28-2008 at 12:33pm
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So do you have a flame arrestor on the boat now?
I really appreciate the ingenuity you used to swapa rubbish system like the protec into a dependable cost conscious solution. As far as the USCG ratings, I have run an automotive holley mech fuel pump in my boat, when I suspected my "starvation" at higher rpms was the fuel pump. That didn't fix it, it ended up being non fuel delivery related. Old gaskets did it to me. I swapped the marine fuel pump back in as soon as I realized that if the holely didnt fix it, it wasn't the fuel pump. For the carburetor, the marine version is really only differentiated by the tubes, which can be bought at DIM for 8 bucks. Why Holley charges over a hundred dollars more for a marinized carb compared to the same street carb, I don't know. Price gouging I guess is the only answer. But on most other marine specific items, there are some differences worth noting. ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: June-30-2008 at 12:15pm
WRONG!!!!! The throttle plate shafts are splined and sealed to prevent fuel leakage through them and out of the body of the carb. Auto versions don't have this feature. You really think that changing a vent tube automatically makes a carb a marine version? ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: June-30-2008 at 1:20pm
now you know. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-30-2008 at 2:49pm
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Hi
I'm hoping there is a picture attached here. It shows a 600 Holley marine carb primary throttle shaft on the right. It has 3 grooves at either end where it rides in the throttle plate, no seals. It acts like a labyrinth seal. The other is a non marine 390 Holley, just a smooth shaft. It took me way longer to get the picture and get it on here than it did to get the shaft out to show the difference. Keno 
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Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: June-30-2008 at 3:51pm
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Nice comparison KENO. The marine throttle shaft also looks like it could be made of a different material, however it could just be newer and cleaner. I don't recall if it is a different material or not, but it wouldn't surprise me if it is. The splines are definitely marine specific. ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-30-2008 at 9:07pm
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Hi
The marine one is brass and the car one is steel. The brass one only looks good because of a wire wheel. The car one was cleaned with a wire wheel too, didn't clean up as good though. Keno |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: July-01-2008 at 1:34am
Bringin' the RAAAARRRR, huh? Simmer down skippy. Good thing my throttle plate is from the marine carb then. In my case, yes, that was enough to make it marinized. LOL It STILL is price gouging. I looked last night in Summit's catalog, and the marine 4160 in the same cfm range was 200 dollars more than the automotive one. Thanks for the comparison shot KENO, posting a pic does a lot more than shouting out that someone is wrong. That really does make sense. Now I wonder why the marinized versions of the edelbrock carbs are not much more than the auto ones. Maybe Edlebrock isn't into gouging as bad? I actually understand Holley carbs though, unlike edelbrock carbs. ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: eklock
Date Posted: July-02-2008 at 2:10am
The flame arrestor has never been removed. I've simply concealed it's unsightlyness with a finned aluminum cover. The boat is fully USCG compliant. |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: July-02-2008 at 3:16am
Could be because they probably build and sell a ratio of 100:1 auto versus marine carbs. Maybe you're right and they're gouging but the choice is yours to buy either brand so why complain about something you can't change? And just my opinion but I think your signature bash on Correct Craft is in poor taste. If the newbie with the picture of the hot babe had to change his then yours should surely go too. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: July-02-2008 at 4:11am
I am not really familiar with edelbrocks, so I went and found a local carb guru and I got a marine like new holley for a lot less than either a new edelbrock or holley marine carb. I love my CC. I spent a ton of hours and $$ making it how I wanted it, but I surely was not happy to find that the battery box drain was glassed nearly completely closed from the factory. Beside that flaw, it has been very good to me outside of normal maintenace on a boat that is 30 years old this year. I am sure you can appreciate that. If anything you drew attention to it so that I realized I had a fat finger typo. It is fixed now. ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: July-02-2008 at 9:53am
I'm not gonna argue with you but when I read your signature I read "No Class". You could change that in a second but that's up to you. Goodbye. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: July-02-2008 at 11:52am
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Hey 81
Congrats on your boat being selected as the feature boat. Very nice job. Especially like the silver screen surround is it just polished aluminium or anodised. ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: July-02-2008 at 12:05pm
Thanks Lewy2001, That was a nice surprise, The windshield frame is polished aluminum. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: July-07-2008 at 3:42pm
Perception alters reality. My statement is not a bash, and never was intended on being one. I am sure you understand as well as I do that these boats take a lot of time and $$. It is too bad you wanted to get off on the wrong foot. I am sure I will see your boat sometime in WI, as most of the boats in IL end up in WI at some point. So I really don't think a goodbye is necessary. Also, I like this site a lot since it is pretty much the only site for older nautiques. So I won't be going anywhere. ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |