Rudder wear
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Boat Maintenance
Forum Discription: Discuss maintenance of your Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7603
Printed Date: January-19-2025 at 1:28am
Topic: Rudder wear
Posted By: phospher
Subject: Rudder wear
Date Posted: July-20-2007 at 3:26pm
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I'm wondering how much my rudder can be worn out before it should be replaced. The boat seems to drive just fine but when I inspect the rudder it looks like it's corroded near the top on the front and sides. The corosion looks like little craters all over. The boat is an 1982 American Skier. I'll probably replace the rudder next summer but I just wanted peoples advice. I'll post some pics later tonight.
There is no corrosion on the prop only the rudder. thanks gents, -phil |
Replies:
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: July-21-2007 at 3:20am
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Here's the pictures I was speaking of.
Also, do you think I need to wet sand to rid the oxidation or can I get by with a rubbing compound? Let me know what you think. Thanks! -phil 
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Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: July-21-2007 at 3:20am
| sorry for the HUGE pictures. |
Posted By: The Lake
Date Posted: July-21-2007 at 8:32pm
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Hey Phospher,
I'll jump in here without knowing anything at all; but it makes me wonder, has the boat been a salt water boat? Any damage to the rudder shaft, or around the rudder port inside or out? I guess if it were mine I'd look for a new one for no other reason than peace of mind. Good to have you on the site. Chuck ------------- Walk on Water www.coldwater.me http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=775&sort=&pagenum=3&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970 - 69 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: July-21-2007 at 10:52pm
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Phospher, You haven't mentioned how old the boat is and if it has been in salt water. It looks like zincification to me. It is the process where the zinc in brass will eventually erode out of the base of copper. I have seen it in old brass marine hardware. Without the zinc, it becomes very brittle. It also appears that it has been aggravated by the prop wash / cavitation. Zinc in salt water will be eroded very quickly and the reason it is used as a sacraficial anode on metal hulls in salt waters.
Your gel coat picture is tough to tell if you will need to wet sand or not. Start with some HD compound and buff first and see what happens. I've seen some pretty bad gel just buffed out. When you post pictures, post them from top to bottom by using the "enter key between the pictures. When yo don't, they end up left to right and that makes the post wide. You can go back in to your own post and edit it. Oh, your rudder! I would take it to a prop shop and see if they can grind out most of the erosion but then keep a eye on it. Start looking for a new one because they will need to do a lot of grinding! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: The Dude
Date Posted: July-22-2007 at 1:39am
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Phos, first of all, welcome here! It's a great place.
That's really something! You can do what Pete says and have it grinded, but man, you're going to want to replace that as soon as you can. I'm surprised at that, but an 82 is 25 yrs old now! Pete's right on it for the buffing. Give it a try with the rubbing compound first. It may come out nicely. Good luck! ------------- Mullet Free since 93 http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=717&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1991&yrend=1995" rel="nofollow - 95 Sport 1978 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: July-22-2007 at 3:31am
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The boat is an 1982 American Skier. It has never been used in salt per the previous owner who lives in Wisconsin. There isn't any damage to the prop or drive shaft from what I can tell. The tranny is smooth as butter and there are no vibrations. The engine has 620hrs.
I'm sure this is the original rudder... Just got in from a LONG day on the boat. 9:0AM until 11:00PM. thanks, |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: July-23-2007 at 8:19am
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Phospher, Sorry I didn't catch that it was a 82 because I didn't scroll all the way to the right!! Was the boat on a lift or hanging in a boat house at the height were the rudder erosion would be at the waters surface? The wet and dry cycle will come in to play too. I really don't think it's the age because I see plenty of old boats and have never seen that amount of erosion on a rudder. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: July-23-2007 at 11:46am
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Phos, I'm surprised that you aren't having any steering issues like pulling to the right or left. I would be a little hesitant to start filing or grinding that. I have read (but I certainly don't know for sure) that grinding rudders can cause pretty significant drivability issues when not done right. I think there are rudders out there that are "tunable" but I haven't had any experience with them nor know anybody that has really played with them. It's kinda like tuning the fin on a slalom ski. Can make the ski perform completely different with very little movement. I agree with Pete that I've never seen erosion like that before. I would get that replaced.
------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: July-23-2007 at 1:24pm
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weird. yeah, i'm not sure. i think it might have been kept on a boat lift at one point. i think i'll just replace. how much can i expect to pay for the rudder to be replaced and installed? perhaps i can handle the install myself. however, i am new to boats.
thanks fellas. -phil |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: July-23-2007 at 4:23pm
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For you to do it, would be a couple hundred bucks I'm guessing maybe even less depending where you get the rudder from. If you're even the slightest bit mechanically inclined and have some pretty basic tools, you should be able to do that easy. For a shop to replace it I would think it would run into about 500-600 bucks or better.
------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: July-23-2007 at 5:13pm
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thanks backfoot100. i am mechanically inclined a bit. i'll just have to search these forums for some "rudder replacement procedures"
i THINK it's like 4 screws, something like 3m marine adhesive sealant 5200?? and the part that connects to the steering cable right? Maybe some water proof grease in there somewhere? am i over simplifying this? |
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: July-23-2007 at 5:17pm
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actually, i just found this post:::
1. Get a six pack of beer and start drinking. What else matters? 2. Remove rear seat. 3. Remove rear panel. 4. Remove rear floor board (might require removal of doghouse. 5. Remove saftey wire at top of rudder post/tiller arm. 5a. Support rudder from below (do not let it drop). 6. Remove bolt from top of rudder post. 7. Loosen clamping bolt on tiller arm. 8. Lift tiller arm up off of rudder post. 9. Remove rudder from below. may require jacking boat off of trailer bunks so rudder clears prop gaurd, if so equiped. If replacing/removing rudder port, simply remove nuts from bilge side (4 ea.) and work rudder out from below...it will be stuck with sealant. If PO used 3M 5200, you can cuss him now and go get the twelve pack....you will need it. ------------------------------------------------ I don't think I need to remove the port? just drop the rudder out right? curious to see how that seals in there and how to put it back in so that it doesn't leak. -phil |
Posted By: The Dude
Date Posted: July-23-2007 at 5:51pm
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go for it phos. I've had the rudder out on mine and I'm not a mechanic. You can do it! ------------- Mullet Free since 93 http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=717&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1991&yrend=1995" rel="nofollow - 95 Sport 1978 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: July-23-2007 at 7:05pm
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so, i might as well post all my concerns on this thread....
i have been reading about crankcase pressure and dipsticks popping out. after being on the lake and then checking the oil afterwards my dipstick is always just popped out a tad bit. i've never seen any oil around the dipstick area so i don't think it's blowing oil. also, the oil always looks good and not milky. should i have concerns? when i say it pops up, it pop's up about a quarter inch, if that. it's a 351 commander. ps: i'm already addicted to this site. |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: July-23-2007 at 7:16pm
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Have you got a working pcv valve connected to a vacuum port? Have you got a breather piped to your flame arrestor. If you have both of these devices and your pushing out the dip stick you might have a problem. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: July-23-2007 at 7:22pm
| not sure about the pcv valve. i will have to check. where is that located? but i do have a breather piped to the flame arrestor. |
Posted By: behindpropeller
Date Posted: July-23-2007 at 7:31pm
| Looks like previous owner of boat hit something that made the prop eat the rudder. |
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: July-23-2007 at 7:36pm
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maybe that's it....
hmm. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: July-23-2007 at 8:34pm
That was a thought that I had as well but discounted it because if the prop blades were bent backwards then it would have chewed into the rudder at a lower point. It is definitly corrosion, erosion or electrolitic. We may never figure it out!! Beavers that like brass? Phil, Follow the post with the instructions. The brass piece that is bolted to the hull with the 4 bolts is the "port". It does not need to be removed from the boat to remove the rudder. I think you will be surprise at how easy a job it is. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
behindpropeller wrote:Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: July-23-2007 at 8:49pm
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Pete what kinda beaver eats brass?The guy does not say where the damage occured, but if them beavers up there eat rudders and props, this redneck ain't gonna jump into that water again.
Down here we have alligators,cotton mouths and all kinda critters that will bite or suck your blood,we even have a little critter that will bite and crawl thru a tent mesh screen, the are called NO SEE UM'S,for real. But we don't have nuttin' that will eat the balls off a brass monkey.......boat dr ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: behindpropeller
Date Posted: July-24-2007 at 1:23am
If it pulled the shaft back it would have eaten the rudder with the prop. Why would it only be in that one place if it was corrosion? Had to be some kind of mechanical damage. |
Posted By: GrandSlam
Date Posted: July-24-2007 at 12:41pm
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Phospher, it looks like electrolysis to me. I know some of the CC do not have a common bonding system. Also I do not see a zinc on your rudder. How is the zinc on your shaft? If it was me I would replace the rudder and try to determine the cause of the erosion. Good luck, Jerry ------------- Jerry Troy USCG Master, 100GT 1989 23' Fish Nautique 1992 47' Jersey SF |
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: July-24-2007 at 1:51pm
| shaft looks fine. no wear at all. the tranny was rebuilt a few years ago not sure if they replaced the shaft then too. |
Posted By: GrandSlam
Date Posted: July-24-2007 at 3:40pm
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Phosher, I am not asking about the condition of the shaft, I am asking about the condition of the zinc that is on the shaft. Do you have a sacrificial zinc on the shaft? We do on ours; the idea is that if there is any electrolysis the zinc will erode first before the shaft, prop or rudder. Jerry ------------- Jerry Troy USCG Master, 100GT 1989 23' Fish Nautique 1992 47' Jersey SF |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: July-24-2007 at 3:42pm
Phos; The PCV valve is on one of the valve covers. It would have a hose attached to a vaccuum port off the base of the carb (at least that's where mine is coming from). If you pull it out of the valve cover and shake it, it should rattle. If it doesn't, replace it. I would assume that the engine is also an Indmar and not a PCM (you have said that it's a 351W but I don't recall if you said who the manufacturer is). Mine is an Indmar but its also a special production chevy engine. Not sure if American Skier used PCM motors or not. Don't confuse a breather on the flame arrestor for the fuel pump overflow tube either. The fuel pump overflow should be a clear plastic tube that runs from the fuel pump to the arrestor. Depending on the manufacturer, it may or may not have a breather on the arrestor. Hope this helps. ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: July-24-2007 at 3:51pm
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got it. i'll check the pcv valve. i figured that it was the elbow piece attached via a gromet. the engine is a 351w ford commander marine.
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Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: July-24-2007 at 3:56pm
How would I tell if there is sacrificial zinc on the shaft? thanks! |
Posted By: behindpropeller
Date Posted: July-24-2007 at 4:11pm
Those are more common in salt water, and for Aluminum, not brass/nibral. If corrosion was that bad on brass/nibral everybody would have problems with their props, rudders, and fins. I still think it is mechanical damage that has been smoothed out by the abrasive qualities of water over time. Why would you have corrosion in JUST that ONE spot??? Tim |
Posted By: GrandSlam
Date Posted: July-24-2007 at 5:20pm
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Phospher and Tim, my boats have always had zincs on them, we boat on the bay (brackish water) and ocean (salt water), I wasn’t sure if electrolysis is specific to just salt water, isn’t an issue in fresh water? If you look closely at the pic of the rudder you will see erosion all along the back edge, maybe a prop shop can weld the rudder. Electrolysis will cause bronze to turn a reddish/orange color. The zinc clamps around the shaft between the stuffing box and the strut and is designed to erode in the event of electrolysis. A common cause of electrolysis is a battery charger. Have you had any prolong used of a battery charger? Jerry ------------- Jerry Troy USCG Master, 100GT 1989 23' Fish Nautique 1992 47' Jersey SF |
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: July-24-2007 at 5:25pm
| I haven't used a battery charger yet. But I just bought the boat... |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: July-24-2007 at 5:49pm
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The wear is typical of saltwater corrosion, it could be concentrated in that one spot simply because it was a current beween the engine (connected through the shaft to the prop) and rudder that facilitated it or because the mechanical interaction of the prop wash at that point was good at removing oxidation and leaving a new layer behind to oxidize. if you had a zinc on your shaft it would be an egg shaped bulge. Zincs that are on the rudder are usually rounded disks that are bolted through the rudder about where your corrosion is the worst. Nibral or not in salt water with no zincs that kind of corrosion is imminent with zincs its still inevitable but slower. In fairly neutral freshwater zincs don't hurt but are rarely needed. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: March-06-2008 at 7:41pm
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ok, who thinks that i NEED to replace my rudder this year. the boat seems to perform fine no vibrations or anything i just don't want it to snap while my wife is driving the boat. what do you think. this rudder is going to cost me 400 bones so obviously i would rather not replace it if i don't have to. ------------- |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-06-2008 at 7:51pm
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Phil, I had to reread the thread!! I didn't pick up anyone saying you really need to put a new rudder on it and I will agree. As long as you maintain control of the boat you're ok.
One thing you should consider if you haven't done anything is to recondition the swim platform. Get the varnish or poly off it. Nether will stick to teak as you can see in your picture. Clean it up and put a good synthetic teak oil on it. Edit: I just got the mail and the spring flier from West Marine came. They are having a sale on gel repair kits, buffing compounds and waxes!! Red is a tough color to keep from fading! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: March-07-2008 at 2:00pm
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I too had to reread the thread, I would highly doubt the rudder is ever going to break, although I would lay off the power slides for good measure. I wouldnt even bother to grind on it if you are currently happy with the way the boat drives, likely to do more harm than good. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: March-07-2008 at 3:32pm
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cool. you guys are great. thanks for re-reading this long ass thread. i think i'll use it again this year then. as far as the swim deck. i actually did refinish it. i sanded it down by hand (that took a long time) and then applied teak oil. it came out really good. i also used rubbing compound on the transom and the deck and it came out pretty good. i still need to put some elbow grease into her though... tough work.
let me pose another question. i'm planning on doing a tune up this spring that includes, -new plugs -new wires -new raw water impeller -new rotor and cap who is in the milwaukee area, who wants to drink beer and get fed all day while they help me set timing? i've never set timing nor do i have the tools to do it. i'm in slinger, just north west of milwaukee. ------------- |