A buffalo’s first bowtie
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9034
Printed Date: November-21-2024 at 8:17pm
Topic: A buffalo’s first bowtie
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Subject: A buffalo’s first bowtie
Date Posted: November-21-2007 at 11:12pm
On its way downstairs
I had to pull the exhaust manifolds when I sent the trans to Eric. The mating surfaces where the risers bolt on were very pitted. Looks like I didn't quite get there as I didn't have a water problem before. 
Port... 
Starboard... 
This motor was rusted tight when I got it. I'm guessing it could be worse. 
... 
This isn't in my book; it references a chain. I may need a better book! 
------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Replies:
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-22-2007 at 12:55pm
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I talked with the manager of the machine shop, and he seemed very familiar with this motor and it didn't phase him that it was reverse rotation. He said roughly $800 to do the machining and to rebuild the heads. This would be if my hard parts are good. He also knows that I have limited experience and am working from a book, and he seems fine with coaching me a little. He also said to watch out for the books as they "can get you in trouble".
I hope the money sounds about right because I liked him right off. Whatcha' think? And I'd love to know what you guys are thinking while going through this. That's #6 that is burning differently than the rest. What's in the tea leaves? Thanks, Greg ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: November-22-2007 at 1:33pm
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Is that a 6.0? ------------- |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-22-2007 at 1:35pm
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It's a 7.4 ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: November-22-2007 at 1:39pm
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Looks like six is where your water is coming in the steam is cleaning the intake valve. The gear to gear setup is how chevy was running a standard rotation cam in a reverse rotation engine. In fords both the crankshaft and cam shaft go opposite automotive, in the chevy just the crank. 800 is in the ball park depending on exactly what he is including. You boring out and replacing pistons?
Looks like a fun project tear her down and keep the pics coming . ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-22-2007 at 1:45pm
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who the hell built the wood stand for you, he should get the Geppetto award, it really doesnt look in to bad of shape its very clean. how are the bores? can you get away with re-ringiing? it is acceptable if you run a bore gauge down and its in spec. hes good on the price. btw that is the holy grail of engines, ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-22-2007 at 1:54pm
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Thanks Joe! I know I ask a lot of questions, but generally I only have to be told once. This kind of info is priceless to me!
Yes, I was thinking of new pistons and the cylinders need to be honed or bored to the next size. I was also thinking of converting to roller lifters and rockers...thoughts? Does what you said about the cam gear mean that I can use a standard rotation cam in this system? Like you said, at #1 TDC the crank gear has a '0' at the top and the cam gear has the '0' at the top as well. That sure would save some cash! In the end, my goal is to have it ready for another 20 years, and I'd like to update anything that is cost effective. Thanks again! ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-22-2007 at 2:06pm
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roller cam? I built a 396bbc for a guy a couple years ago and put a comp cam in it, the leading edge of the lifters ate right into the cam and ground it down to a broomstick, it was a mess, because of the lift a had to go with a roller after that, it purred and there is not a sound on earth that compares to a cammed up BBC. if you can afford a roller its worth the extra $$$$.
when building I always concentrate on the heads, you can hog some beef out of them to really liven them up....no air....no power ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-22-2007 at 2:09pm
I made the stand so I wouldn't scratch my transmission on the grade behind the house  ...and you're gonna love this; a good portion of the wood and all of the screws are from the crate you sent my trans back in! LOL
On the re-ringing, I don't think so. The cam is rusty in places and the water passages are full of rust nuggets and impeller pieces. A bunch of the smaller passages were plugged up. I'll never skimp on an impeller again, but I think these have been there longer than I've had the boat. I want to do this thing right and then take care of it properly. What's the scoop on this being the 'holy grail' of engines? ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
eric lavine wrote:Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-22-2007 at 2:11pm
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check under any old FORD models A's hood... ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-22-2007 at 2:17pm
I was going to take the heads to the shop monday. What should I ask for? ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-22-2007 at 2:20pm
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some good head....i had too hopefully your not religous, best thing to do is to talk to one of the old timers and gather lots of info, it all depends what your looking for, the more the horsepower the more the wear and tear, opening up the heads is a beneficial and cheap way to gain horsepower, especially on boat engines, they require much more air because of the rpms they see, when opening up the heads your trying to eliminate restrictions, think of it as a funnel the bigger the opening the faster the flow, your trying to get the air in and out as fast and unrestrictive as possible. if you concentrate on three things what an engine needs....Air, Fuel, spark, ..... air is the main ingredient and compression falls under air, cfm, cam lift, cam duration, ... fuel and spark is pretty much controlled, but messing with the air flow side is where you'll gain HP and Torque ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-22-2007 at 2:26pm
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LMAO and no worries...I'll just walk in a say that I need both of my heads fixed?!!?
Thanks for the info Eric. I'll ask at the machine shop and see what else I can find till then. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-22-2007 at 4:35pm
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you could throw a ton of money at an engine and the gains could be minimal, the boat will basically do the same thing if you were looking for big horsepower increases it may be a waste because of gas prices. i would tell the rebuilder that your looking for a more efficient rebuild than to hop up the engine. stay stock with the compression ratio and if you go with a roller cam with the same lift and duration you may not burn as much gas. the boat has plenty of power with a stock BBC, freshen the engine up with out the sacrifice of fuel economy cause i know a good day of skiing is a hundred dollar bill in that style boat, unless your loaded and you dont care what a gallon of gas costs... ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-22-2007 at 5:04pm
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I'm right with you on your above post Eric. I don't want to hot rod it, but I do want to make the upgrades that make sense. This boat has always been a workhorse, and I just want it ready for another 20. I think I want to do the roller cam for the effiency and because it side-steps the big oil discussions I've read here. I'll do the unleaded valve conversion too if needed. Beyond that, I'm taking suggestions!
FWIW...I'm the builder ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-22-2007 at 6:10pm
I found the leak, and looking down into the manifold, I can see why it was going to #6. This riser must have been the last 1 of the 4 faces I did that day because that's all I did that day and was worn out!  The orange thing on the riser is yet another piece of impeller, and the piece count is around 15.
 ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-23-2007 at 10:43am
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your local machinist can take a nice clean-up cut on the manifold, unless you were looking for new ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-23-2007 at 10:58am
I hope you're right. This shop is also the oldest parts store here in town, but they lost their NAPA line when NAPA put up their own stores. Since then, this shop has fixed and tuned up their machines and hired the guy(Sherman) that I talked to. Now that I think about it, I didn't recognize anyone there. Looks like they're chasing revenue that NAPA won't cut in on. Anyway, the cool thing is that Sherman isn't scared of boat parts! Last time a younger guy helped me carry 'em back out to the truck?!!? LOL Eric, if you have a minute shoot me a phone # millman1@bellsouth.net Thanks ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-23-2007 at 11:01am
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call me on my cell, i gotta go make the doughnuts in 20 minutes 330-322-8817 ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-23-2007 at 1:21pm
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I checked on the lifters and i dont think they'll work, they are under different part numbers
it is a nice cam set if anyone is interested in a small block chevy roller cam set, it came out with 11 hours on it and is in like new condition. ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-23-2007 at 4:24pm
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Eric, thanks for checking. FWIW guys, Eric gets my vote for nice guy of the year...he answered a couple of questions for me while driving to work in the snow!
I'm going to do the roller conversion, but I need to get the factory cam specs. I didn't see those in the reference section, but I'll dig 'em up. Amy found a ridge reamer so the pistons are out, and yes...she's a keeper! What's the preferred way to pull the cam gear? Pics to follow... ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-23-2007 at 11:54pm
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Here's a few more tea leaves. The journal endplay from 1-4(front to back) is .020, .022, .022, .019
The crank endplay is .011 All of the skirts have some scoring and mostly on the side facing away from the crank. This one is the worst. 
This shows where it was rusted up. When I was removing the pistons, I noticed that they moved more freely at the bottom of the stroke. This is probably the wrong term, but they are 'barreled' at the bottom. 
These are typical of the rest. 
The main bearings. 
I have more pics and am going to try to get some better ones tomorow. If anyone wants a better look at something, I'll try to accomodate because I appreciate the help. Any of this look scary? Thanks! ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: November-24-2007 at 12:08am
BFN, I didn't see your cam question answered in this thread so here goes. The answer unfortunately is no. You cannot use the standard rotation cam in this engine. The reason is, although the gear setup turns your cam in the standard direction, the firing order is still different than the standard rotation engine because the rotating assembly spins backwards. Your firing order is 1-2-7-5-6-3-4-8.....That is unless PCM has a different way of numbering the cylinders than Chevy does. As for the roller cam,...that would be a good upgrade. The only problem is your block is not cast to be used with the Chevy production roller cam type setup. Therefore you will have to go with a retro-fit setup which requires special roller lifters. These are linked together with tie bar that prevents them from rotating in the lifter bore (and keeps the rollers aligned to the cam lobes. Finding a roller cam the meets your requirements may be challenging and probably will be pricy as well. There are a few grinders though that will grind one special for you like Comp Cams. Hope this helps some. Brian ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-24-2007 at 12:32am
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That helps a lot and thanks Brian! You're right about the firing order...same as is listed on my pcm engine tag. That had to be too easy.
As far as finding a cam that meets my needs...I have to figure out what my needs are, but I think I'll still do the roller conversion with the hope of it lasting. I did see a few cam and lifter kits on jegs and summit for flat tappet motors, but again I don't know the specs I'm looking for yet. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: November-24-2007 at 2:04am
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I have some specs for small block Chevy cams. The stock Chevy roller marine cam specs are: 197/207 @ .050 and lift is 0.430/0.450 (In/Ex). The lobe separation is 109 deg. That is a bone stock very smooth idling cam. The cam I ran in my old woody Chris Craft was a 268H Comp Cams. It had 218/218 and 454/454 lift with 110 lobe separation. This cam had a little rumble to it but was still farely smooth. It pulled very strong and not bad on gas.
Of course with the big block your lift will be higher and you can go a little more on the duration before noticing it's not stock. Here's a Crane profile that I like for the BB: 139001 214/222 and 0.553/0.576 w/110 lobe separation. RPM range is 2000 to 5200. You won't be able to use that particular cam but you can take the specs and call Comp Cams (or Crane) and have them grind that for you for your firing order. According to Dennis Moore (Author of Small Block Marine Performance) when selecting a cam there are 4 general rules to follow: 1) Choose a cam with faster opening and closing rates than stock (roller profile will accomplish this) 2) Choose a cam that has a lobe separation between 109 and 112 deg 3) Choose a cam that has 6 t0 10 degrees more ex duration than intake 4) Install the cam with the lobe center between 108 and 110 degrees ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: November-24-2007 at 2:20am
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boy you are getting way over your head then you want to listen to well who ever. Everyting looks normal, end play? only one place to see that on the crank/bearings/thrust so realy don't understand your numbers and yes the guy's not going to be scared of a reverse rotation motor when he has never done one so do you really wont to let him practice on yours? But malibu boy will lead you down a path right wrong well let's see.... some all ready know. but it's your money, motor, boat.......................... 02 ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: November-24-2007 at 2:42am
I'm guessing that the first 4 numbers he mentioned (when describing end play) are actually the rod side clearances while still bolted to the journels, right BFN? And what path are you refering to Chris? By the way how many engines have you put together over the span of your lifetime? Not counting the ones your dad put together..... but you. BFN's engine is a Chevy. I've been through many of these so unless you know who your talking about you should probably keep your comments to yourself. ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-24-2007 at 9:32am
You're right on again nutty, and the last # I posted was measured on the front face of the rear main thrust bearing. The book you mentioned sounds like the companion volume to a book I was looking for, Big Block Marine Performance; but it's out of print. 79, I know I'm in over my head, but I was in over my head when I learned how to swim too! I don't think anyone is trying to throw me under a bus. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-24-2007 at 10:01am
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This is the description from crane on that part #. I realize I can't use this exact cam, but this summary sounds like what I need.
"Excellent low end torque and HP, good idle, daily usage, off road, towing, performance and fuel efficiency, 2600-3000 cruise RPM, marine applications: primarily used in 454 cu.in. near-stock engines for mild performance applications with free-flowing above water exhaust systems. 8.75 to 10.5 compression ratio advised." Does a barefoot qualify as free-flowing above water exhaust? They're under water at idle. And how about the compression ratio; our reference section has my motor at 8.12:1? Thanks again! ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-24-2007 at 12:49pm
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greg, it seems more research is needed, the first stop should be the machine shop to dial bore the cylinders and measure the crank journals and hot tank the block, obviously you have time to research and gather information as which is happening on this thread. the machinist should also install your cam bearings because that can be tricky, those have to go in perfectly straight or you will spin one. A side note on your cam search: the last cam i bought was a Summit brand cam, it was 1/3 the cost of the rest, In the instructions on one of the illustrations in the back ground was a crane box. Crane makes all the summit cams and carries the same warranty. As with all summit brand items they are made by all the big names and marketed under thier name.
another beneficial upgrade (in my eyes) are some Manley stainlees valves and valve springs, they are inexpensive for what you are getting and once again are probably available in the Summit brand. Research and absorb all the info you can, especially compression ratio's and Cam specs cause that will make or Break the engine ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: November-24-2007 at 12:53pm
first was a '65 283 SBC, then I did '71 350 Olds, '76 455 olds, then there's the '77 350 and 80's 3.8L Buicks, and then don't forget about the HO 2.3L Quad4 too, want to know more? Want to know about all of the cam changes, intake changes, how about cylinder head replacements too. Or the time I replace my buddies motor in their boat after he throw a rod throw the block two days before his dad was going to Dale Hollow kinda saved there vaction for them that year. So you got any other bullsh*t to spout off about malibu boy ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-24-2007 at 2:14pm
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79, you are the Clint Eastwood of this site....hands down ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-24-2007 at 3:57pm
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Thanks for the info on the summit house brand. I noticed they were a little cheaper, and I'll check on the valves and springs too. Those need to be replaced anyway, right?
I'm going to get the pcm service manual from marine engine, and I'll get some #'s up after I get the parts to the shop monday. Are there better and worse types/brands of bearings? ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: November-24-2007 at 4:44pm
So with all that engine building experience that you claim to have, why didn't you build your own engine for your own boat? And don't come back and say you did because you've already told everyone here that you bought it from Jasper. Why do you feel the need to hammer people on the site? What is up with you. Your word is NOT gospel. Opinions vary widely amongst mechanics as to what is the best setup. I've built at least as many engines as you stated above here and then some so learn who you are talking to my man! Also, instead of hammering people for their thoughts, why don't you offer some of your own....constructively? Do you feel the need to start a fight? I remember once coming to your defense on another inboard boat site (not this one) supporting your claim about the value of ASE certifications. Do you remember that? I also ask your advice one time (on this site) about a Holley double pumper carb. All I got from you in return was ridicule. You are some piece of serious work my friend. One more question for you....why did you sell your boat. Was it because you figured out after all it was a piece of sh*t or did you need to money to hire a brain shrink? ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: November-24-2007 at 4:58pm
BFN, as for your compression with this cam, I'm betting that you will be boring your block and getting new pistons. This will give you the luxury of bumping the compression up to the recommendations of that cam. Just boring the block alone is going to raise it some. Also there are many other things you can do to increase it as well. Some of these are decking the block, milling the heads and thinner head gasket (within reason). How much you do will depend largely on your budget. I can also guide you to a good online static compression calculator. ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: November-24-2007 at 7:05pm
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Oh, and Happy Birthday BFN! Mine's tomorrow.
-Brian ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-24-2007 at 7:38pm
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Well a happy birthday to you Brian! And thank you so much you your input and time. I searched and searched for this sort of info.
I know the milling terms from my v-dub days, but I was advised not to 'get talked into raising the compression'. I clearly have more reading to do. I'm sure raising it a little to get into the cam specs would be ok, but you know I don't want to hot rod it, right? Anyway, I think you're right about it needing to be bored, so maybe that'll be enough. First things first though. What are the key things to ask the machinist about so I don't fall into the situation 79 described? I think I read here that the crank should be ground in the rotation it will turn in and that cylinder to piston clearance should be .020 for marine(larger than auto). How's my memory on these? ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-24-2007 at 7:57pm
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your machinist should know this, if not start searching for another one, the thing about going higher on the comp ratio is higher head temps which in a car is fine, there is alot to consider when building a good matching reliable motor for your boat, take your time and absorb all these little things that you are reading and hearing....now unless you want to wipe reid and the boat docs' tug boats, stick to stock but upgrade on the meat and potatoes of the engine, the more the hp the more the hood will be lifted ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: November-24-2007 at 8:33pm
You are correct on the crank grinding. The crank or the grinding stone or both should spin opposite of what an automotive one does. It's been a few years since I've watched one being turned so I'm not sure about both, but that would make sense. As for the piston clearance, .020 is way too much. Standard automotive cast pistons are in the range of .0015 to .003 (measured at the skirt). Forged pistons fit a little more lose (like .004 to .006). The pistons I just bought for the 350 Chevy I'm building fit at .005 as recommended by the manufacturer (TRW Forged). The reason for piston fitting a little more lose on marine engines is this: with lake water cooling the engine and ~140 thermostat, the block will run quite a bit cooler than an automotive block. But the piston will still heat up almost as much as the auto one so it will expand.... but the bore will not. Therefore the extra clearance is taken up in thermal expansion of the piston. Always follow what the manufacturer's (of the pistons) recommendations for piston clearance for the intended use. If you buy pistons and this information is not supplied for marine use....contact them. Then when you have the clearances recommended, take them with the block and pistons to your machinist. Tell him you want the block bored and finish honed to those dimensions with torque plates installed on your block. This is nothing new and a good quality machine shop will do this as standard practice. Pick one that will. ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: November-24-2007 at 8:33pm
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why did I choose, Jasper? well the one machine shop locally doesn't have the means to balance the rotating assemlby and the other one is an idiot and takes for ever. My buddy found that out the hard way and now he's also learning the guy's not to bright either but maybe his new motor will stop burning oil some day. Oh and there is the deal with the block being cracked so it really is un-useable, but Jasper would take as a core at full value and then a 18 month warrenty too. Pretty simple logic actually and they sponsor a friends cars so a few extra tweaks where made that normally would have been done how car you loose. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: November-24-2007 at 8:39pm
Sounds like you made a wise decision. Don't you miss your boat? Looking for a replacement or do you already have one? Future project? ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-24-2007 at 10:46pm
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Nutty, that's a great explanation on the piston clearance. Understanding is so much better than just having the #'s. Heck, I even know what a torque plate is now. We used to pitch the jugs on the v-dubs, so I'm learning a lot here.
I think I'll go talk to him some more without parts in hand. If anything doesn't sound right I can keep looking, and if anyone knows a shop in the atlanta area... I'm soakin' it in Eric...and I just reminded myself that I'm not in a hurry! LOL I've had a few days to work on it this week; maybe I'll pull the floor up tomorrow?!!? ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: November-24-2007 at 11:52pm
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BFN, keep in mind that the numbers I posted above are only ballpark figures. You need to get the specs from the piston manufacturer.
I ordered my parts from Summit. Went with TRW forged pistons, Clevite 77 "P" series bearings, Speedpro moly rings. Arizona Speed and Marine is doing my block work. TRW recommends .005 for my clearance which I first thought was a little lose. But my machinist said he was going with that spec due to it being raw water cooled. He will be milling my block some (approx. .020) to reduce the "quench" dimension to .040-.045 with a .039 thick head gasket. My cam is a Comp Cams roller with 212/218 and .488/.495 lift and 112 lobe separation. My static compression based on a 64cc combustion chamber will be 8.6:1 as my pistons have a 21cc D shaped dish. My heads are Vortec type but not made by Chevy. Instead they came from Racing Head Service located in Memphis Tenn. They are equipped with stainless valves, Comp Cams springs (recommended by them for cam), screw in studs, teflon seals. My intake is a Weiand and is very similar to the Performer. I know my compression may be a tad on the low side (I'd like it to be about 9.2:1) but the engine guys at ASM say I should get about 330 HP out of this. Thoughts? ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-25-2007 at 12:34am
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Im curious nutty, why didnt you stroke? the curve on a stroker is a perfect match for a ski boat, at this point it sounds like you also still have time, the last stroker kit i bought from a speed shop out of Las vegas, crank, pistons , rods , rings, it was $699 and 75.00 to ship, crank was balanced and relieved already and all quality parts, dollar for dollar it was the best 100 horse i ever bought ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: November-25-2007 at 1:00am
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I probably should have went that route to begin with but at first I was only going to do a cam, intake and head upgrade because my motor is still good (<300 hrs). But when I found out that vortec heasds work best with a D-shape dish type piston, i decided to go ahead and buy a core engine and start fresh. I've purchased my parts already so I'm going to stay the course. A stroker would be a very nice upgrade though. I appreciate the thought. ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-25-2007 at 9:14am
A few more...is the edge wear on the cam normal?
 ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-25-2007 at 11:48am
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The engine manual in the reference section here has 2 compression specs for my motor unless I'm reading something wrong...
page 14 - 8.12:1 page 15 - 8.8:1 ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: November-25-2007 at 11:55am
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the cam where doesn't look too normal to me. I don't think you had much time left on it. The case harding looks like it's almost worn throw and then the lobes start to go next. So it looks like you caught it in time. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-25-2007 at 12:16pm
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Thanks for your input 79...it's worse than it looks in the pic. Case hardening worn through? This'll sound stupid, but do you mean where the 'silver' has worn off of the lobes? On 3 of the lobes, the wear looks close to even but is worn through the silver; on the rest, the wear is on the rear edge of the lobe in relation to the motor and worn through. Seems to me that the wear should be centered on the lobes, but I'm in school here. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: November-25-2007 at 1:00pm
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BFN, refresh my memory a little....Is the the motor that has ~2500 hrs? ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-25-2007 at 1:01pm
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now you know why we stress a roller, it eliminates those wear patterns you are seeing, the metal didnt disappear its somewhere in that motor,that is pretty much normal wear, normal in the aspect of not as many oil changes, high hours, dirty oil, heavy spring pressure and so on. sometimes the lifter holes are not perfectly perpendicular to the cam. take a good look at the wear on the lifters that rode on those lobes, I know your putting new lifters in. case hardening is like a chocalate covered cherry the surface is hard and the center is soft, i dont know if they harden the cams through or case harden them.
Greg, are you doing all the assembly work or is the machine shop? ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-25-2007 at 1:07pm
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BTW, the crank looks beatiful, I dont grind unless i have to, Mic. it, and if it is in spec re-use and plastic guage,
If you have light scratches it can be polished with out going to the next size If you dont spend the money grinding the crank, take the money and have it balanced with the HB and FW attached (if possible). When it gets to the knitty gritty of assemble, I weigh all the rods on my gram scale and grind the cast areas to even them out on the weight, I also do this with the pistons, i grind at the bottem squirt evenly on both sides. some guys say all that extra stuff you do doesnt make a difference .....there the ones always working on thier sh*t ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-25-2007 at 1:26pm
I'd say that is close...could be over or under, but I'd guess that's a fair estimate. This boat has a long history starting with a lot of footing and more recently, a wakeboard school and a local outlaw team. One of those outlaws is a pro in orlando now(last I heard). FWIW the hour meter has 1700 on it now and was disconnected...intentionally I think. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-25-2007 at 1:40pm
I'm doing the assembly, except things you guys tell me not to do...like the cam bearings you mentioned. And I've done a bunch of oil changes since I got it in '05, but it was rusted tight at that time. I soaked the cylinders with oil for a few days and still couldn't turn it with the crank bolt...had to use the torque of the starter to break it loose. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-25-2007 at 1:47pm
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One thing you may want to do during the surgery is to store the crank vertically on the floor if you dont have it that way already. Now this is only my opinion... I dont use high volume oil pumps i never had any good reason to say this is why i use a high volume pump, i have reasons not to but i am open on this subject, my reasons not too: they rob horsepower, the extra pressure loads the bearings, the higher volume of oil foams loosing its ability to lubricate ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-25-2007 at 2:44pm
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your also at the point and a fresh clean block to switch to synthetics, with a flat tappet lifter you wouldnt want to break in with synthetic,read the instructions, alot of guys switch to synthetics and it really is not a good idea mid-term, it has a tendency to break all of the sludge in the engine free and clog in other areas such as oil galley's and so on. if you start with synthetics you end with synthetics as with normal engine oil. there are a million tricks to do when building your engine. these are things I remember as i go, when painting the block it is real trick to use base coat/ clear coat to make matching. it is durable and can withstand temps up to 350 degrees, i wont coat after coat the block because you will trap the heat and you want to use every available means to release the heat ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-25-2007 at 2:45pm
I didn't have it this way, but I do now. This is common practice? I know what happens to wood when it's not stored right, but what's the deal on this? If you see anything else I shouldn't do, please don't hesitate to tell me! LOL I should've titled this thread 'greenhorn and his big block?!!? ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: November-25-2007 at 2:51pm
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Ditto on the HV oil pump. It is not needed. The big block already has a larger pump with more teeth and is more than capable. Also, you don't need the added stress on your distributor gear that it takes to turn the HV pump.
Eric, I've been told the same about standing cranks up vertical. A few very seasoned engine builders and machinist I know say the same so there must be something to that. I've never experienced one bending but who wants to take the risk. Glad you pointed this out....I was going to in an earlier post but somehow forgot. You guys have a great day today....I getting ready to pull my Christmas decorations out of the attic. Talk later. –Brian ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-25-2007 at 2:54pm
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Nutty, did you buy your cam set yet? i have a complete set up out of a 5.7 with 11 hours on it, it is damn close to the speced cam you are looking at, it is a roller and is a factory set-up from Merc. it is in brand new condition also with it is the double roller set-up and harmonic balance,
the boat wasnt winterized and i stripped the old block which was new and installed a new engine for the guy. I will give the cam set away if someone will use it in thier motor. i saved it for the next stroker rebuild and wouldnt hesitate using it, Merc specs thier cams for marine use and are backed by R and D. its not a croassover it was designed for marine use ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-25-2007 at 3:14pm
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you dont find out its bent until you torque the caps, it doesnt take much, i will always put the crank in first and torque, they do sell which is another great addition is stud kits (A.R.E)for the crank instead of bolts, bolts stretch even after a single use. with new studs you wont get that strip feeling when you torque the bolts. if you get it torqued and it locks up the crank then you know you have a bend. its right if you turn by hand and its the smoothest thing you've ever felt and no drag, you really should use plastic gauge and look at every marking on the bearings to make sure they are the correct ones. one other tool i do use is a oil pump priming tool and once the pan is on and all rods a caps assembled I'll keep priming the oil pump, you can make one if your crafty, you can use a socket and old screwdriver and turn it with your drill, you may also want the cam installed when priming,the cam also should be as smooth as butter and dont approach it if it has some drag in them that it will loosen up on start up...it wont, remove and inspect, even a small piece of dirt will cause a drag. When cleaning your internals use brake cleaner and air to dry, never ever wipe your parts with rags. it will clog the pick up screen ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-25-2007 at 3:58pm
The hill I have to climb is getting less and less steep! Thanks again for the ongoing tips. The crank was not as smooth as you described before I unbolted it, but it wasn't bad either. I put up a pic of the lifters since they were mentioned...though I'm sold on the roller system...and none of the grooves in the crank are enough to grab a fingernail. I'm guessing a polish will be enough.
------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-25-2007 at 5:06pm
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is your guy going to hot tank the block? if so i would take him the crank and also hot tank, let him polish and measure also, the crank looks to be in good shape butlike you said things look different in person,
I do see the bottems of the lifters and they are wooped, that is a definite most important upgrade is the roller cam even with stock lift and duration, a little research is needed on the cam, call the cam company that you decide to use and pick thier brains a little and a matching intake for that cam. i do not know if you can use a standard left hand cam, im on the fence but i would think they designed that gear set to accomadate the normal rotation cam just for that reason. if you do talk to the cam company see if they have the number 1 and 7 switch cam, im not sure if those are the 2 cylinders you switch but i know in the circle track world everyone is doing it, they claim 10 to 15 horse, that is lost horsepower and it doesnt require high performance parts to achieve the gain ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: November-25-2007 at 5:47pm
That would make sense. The cam definitely spins in the same direction as in a standard rotation motor. It still seems like the firing order would be different, but Im not familiar with the set up. If you cant use a standard automotive cam, Im pretty sure you can forget about the roller conversion. If theyre like the Fords, having a reverse rotation roller blank made will cost big bucks ($700+). Nothing wrong with a flat tappet though- just use the right oil (both during and after break in) and you'll be fine. ------------- |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-25-2007 at 5:47pm
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I'm going to have everything hot tanked that I can, except maybe the timing cover. It's rusty and probably pitted. I'm going to replace the pulleys on the front of the motor as well. I cleaned them up in '05, but they are still producing a tiny bit of belt dust. I want it to look sharp in the end, and I'm kinda nutz about detail.
I'm not sure what to think about the cam. Nutty said he didn't think it would work because of the different firing orders. I've also read where cam lobes may be ground differently on the leading and trailing sides of the same lobe. I bet woody has a diffinitive answer. I'll ask him tomorrow. I did notice this. If you put the #1 cylinder on the other end in the reverse rotation sequence...they're the same! LH - 18436572 RH - 12756348 ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-25-2007 at 6:11pm
The conversion makes sense to me for several reasons, so I'll probably do it for a few hundred extra. I mean to keep this boat for a long time! ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: 87BFN owner
Date Posted: November-25-2007 at 7:05pm
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Buffalo
Me and the boat doc have already had this conversation about the 454 a regular cam can be used. That info came from woody at SECC. So I believe nutty to be wrong on that one. If you find a roller cam conversion kit let me know. I am looking for one as well. Nutty If you can think of a reason on why woody is wrong about the cam let me know. ------------- |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-25-2007 at 10:05pm
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Summit has some retro-fit cam and lifter kits that are similar to the crane 139001 that I liked the description of earlier in this post. I don't know if they'll work and maybe we'll hear more here when everyone's home from the holiday, but I'm going to split a half day tomorrow between the machine shop and phone.
Wish me luck! ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 12:48am
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it realy doesn't make a difference which way the dist spins or the firing order as long as the plugwires and cam ordered are the same, direct drive on the cam, no timing chain makes it a std rotation cam so any BBC cam will work.
I would disagree on the crank looking good that one journal looks bad and you need to make sure that they are not out of round as well. might have to have the crank turned .010" undersize or more so make sure you get the right bearings if you do have to have it turned down and not just polishing, which usually will not take care of out of roundness on the bearing surfaces. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 1:33pm
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Crane cams recommended the 139001. $1200-$1300 for the cam and lifters(roller) and another $200-$300 for rockers. The prices on Summit looked better, but I don't know if I'm comparing apples to apples.
The guy I talked to didn't want to say that any cam made for this motor would work but said this one would. He also said the motor would be more efficient if I raised the compression to 9.25-9.5:1 ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 1:46pm
Wow, thats some serious money for a cam! My custom flat tappet was only $180. For that kind of $$$ you could get set up with a new set of heads, intake and a FT cam and be running faster AND more efficiently! I dont agree with Eric that increased HP = decreased reliability, by the way. ------------- |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 1:59pm
My thoughts exactly when the summit kits are in the mid $700's. He did give me a bunch of reasons why the roller is so much better for the big blocks, but he has a part to sell as well! I also found out that a friend of a friend is the service mgr at the local marina so I'll get some input from him...and I found the machine shop that does the marina's work and will take mine there. 2 points for 79! LOL ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 2:20pm
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I would expect to pay 500 or so for the http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CRN%2D13532%2D16&autoview=sku - tie bar roller lifters , based on personal experience go with the crane I spent the extra money on comp cams ones for my last build and it cost me about a grand in gaskets and dyno time (not to mention my time) to replace them when two collapsed on the initial startup. Cam should come in around 300-400 and I agree with 79Nautique that any std rotation roller cam for a 454 should work. You will need custom pushrods though because of the roller lifters and since your doing it yourself you will need a pushrod length checker . I would say that all in your going to be about 800 over what it would cost to do it with a hydralic flat tappet. Thats not to discourage it, I am converting my second motor over to a roller setup this winter but it aint cheap.
Roller rockers is a seperate topic they can be used with either a flat or roller cam setup as can the standard rockers. HP vs reliability vs longevity takes into account way too many variables to get into right here but I would definitely be thinking compression in the 9.2-9.5 range for this beast myself. IMHO, significantly under a horsepower per cubic inch should be pretty reliable even with stock internals. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 2:22pm
Okay, here's my thinking on this. The standard rotation firing order of a Chevy 454 is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. The firing order of his RH engine is 1-2-7-5-6-3-4-8 (as he has already verified). The gear setup is of course going to rotate the cam opposite of the crank (which will be in the same direction as a standard cam). No one is arguing this against this point. The problem is that after the #1 cylinder fires, the crankshaft is going to rotate backwards and set up the #2 cylinder to fire (remember this is the firing order of this engine as indicated on his tag). But the cam (being standard and rotating in the standard rotation) has the #8 cylinder set up to fire. In other words the crankshaft and the cam will be grossly out of phase with each other. The valves will be opening and closing at the wrong times. At best you'll have an engine that won't run. At worst may bend some valves by hitting them with the pistons. I think people are forgetting that you have to take into account the way the rod journals are positioned on the crankshaft. The firing order is somewhat limited by this aspect. The exception is that opposing cylinders can be swapped. Opposing cylinders (for those who don't know) are cylinders that are in the same position and moving in the same direction, only they are on opposite strokes. Two opposing cylinders on this engine are: 1 and 6. When cylinder 1 is at TDC compression cylinder 6 is at TDC exhaust. These 2 cylinders can be swapped in firing order, but it's not just by changing plug wires. The cam has to be ground with this firing order. An example of this very thing is the SBF camshafts. The 289 and older 302s use a different firing order that the newer 302s and 351s. However, only opposing cylinders were swapped to make this happen. I've done my best to convince you guys why the standard cam won't work for his engine. If you are still in doubt of what I'm saying, that's okay. But prove it to yourself first. Take your used cam to a engine builder. Ask to see a used cam from a standard rotating engine (454 of course). Line the cams up together and rotate them so that #1 cyl lobes point in the same direction. Now compare the rest of the lobes. I'll bet any amount of money they are different. Also, call one of the major cam companies and check with them. Call Crane or Comp Cams. I'm sure they have dealt with this before. Don't just take someone's word on it! I'd hate to see you ruin your newly built engine by installing the wrong cam. Brian ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 2:41pm
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Brian, I just got off the phone with Comp cams...a much friendlier guy than at Crane explained it to me just as you did above. The firing orders are different and so the cam must be. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: 87BFN owner
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 3:04pm
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Nutty
I planned on doing my homework before I build my 454. I was mearly piping in my two cents worth based on conversations with the boat doc, who inturn had conversations about this motor with woody at SECC. I remember stating in my post if you had a specific reason on why you thought a normal cam would not work that I was all ears. Buffalo What came did crane recommend you use then. Could they supply you with one or would it be a special order cam at a pretty penny. ------------- |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 3:30pm
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Crane recommended the 139001. I told him it was reverse rotation and we didn't discuss firing order, but that's what he said. My guess is he wasn't ready to be back at work today. Looking straight down at the block with it all apart, I can't see how a standard cam would work. Maybe like 79 said, some things could be changed...but the crank journals don't look adjustable?!!? LOL
Time will tell. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 3:46pm
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Tr, i was refering to some high hp increases such as 12 to 1's, aluminum heads and so on and with what i think Greg was more looking for is a reliable turn key engine, hes attacking at it from a reliabilty stand point, sure bump up the compression ratio to a useable ratio such as 9.5 or even close to 10:1 anything after that your beating a dead horse. you get up over 450 on these big blocks and your always tweeking something
If i had 2 grand to spend on this motor i would first go after the cam, after the machine work is done, it would be a roller close to the stock lift and duration, i would spend money on the stock heads, if pistons were needed i would go to 9.5' or in the general area, then intake and carb. BBC's are diamonds in the rough they have the power hidden and you have to find it. this boat stock with the BBC will rip your arms off as it is so power isnt an issue, thats why i was leaning more towards reliability, you can run a hotter motor but along with it comes the problem and lets face it this boat aint easy on the gas and the hotter you build it the more fuel your gonna use, Jacking up the HP on this boat has no advantadgs IMO, but i think the fuel economy and reliabilty does ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 87BFN owner
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 3:47pm
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How could he recommend a cam with out talking about firing order? If he said a normal cam will not work. Does that mean they carry a cam for our application, or would they have to make it. ------------- |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 4:09pm
I still disagree, as I havent been overly impressed with the stock 330hp 454 in Nautiques. Bumping compression to 9.5 or 10:1, and improving airflow through the motor (heads, intake, cam) should improve efficiency AND power. Of course, you have to use the right parts and assemble them properly- that goes without saying- but there should be absolutely no tradeoff in reliability. If it were me, a full rebuild would be a perfect time to go with a mild stroker. Id invest in a quality set of iron heads that boosted compression to ~9.5:1, and get an intake and FT cam to match. Id use high quality gaskets, seals and bearings. That would make for a rock solid 400-450 hp motor that would last another 2500 hrs. Different strokes for different folks ------------- |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 4:15pm
87BFN - Wasn't trying to bash you for your thoughts. I just picked your quote to respond to because of your question. I consider us all friends here. Kind of a brotherhood so to speak. Though my boat is not a CC, it is a very well built boat and a pleasure to be in just the same. I'd love to get back to the east coast and meet some of you guys some time. Here's the thing.....I just can't set back idle a let people talk BFN into installing the wrong cam in his engine (again not pointing the finger at you). That would not be ethical. I've owned 3 inboard boats in my life and have tinkered and rebuilt engines (one for my 59' Chris Craft) since I was 16. My last boat was an '88 Centurion with an Indmar 351W. With a few exceptions it is very much like the PCMs most people have here. I'm now 46 years old and still tinkering....so I'm not some "new kid on the block". Before my current job I held 5 ASE certifications. One of them was Engine Repair. I piped in here because I thought I could help out some. Good luck on both of your projects (both 454 owners). You guys will be very proud of what you've accomplished when boating season rolls around next year! Brian ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 4:17pm
First note that he wasn't in a good mood and probably not in the mood to deal with an amateur. I explained the gear drive and RR crank and that's the part # he gave me. It's an off-the-shelf item they have for LH motors. When I told Comp that it was RR, he said hold on a minute! I'm waiting for a call back from him(comp)...he's looking to see if they have a core. I'm also waiting for LSM to call back. I think it was Nautiquematt who recommended them and I think Tull went by there. LSM's home page says they do counter rotation cams, etc. Eric, that's exactly my plan. Gas will only get higher, so my goal is to efficiently burn the gas I'm putting in it anyway. I'm completely enjoying doing this work, but I don't want to do it all the time(not the same motor)! Turn key like you said. I don't know yet what it'll cost to port and polish these heads, but I am going to have it balanced for $250. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 4:33pm
Everyone has helped a lot and I'm grateful beyond words! ...from this cam issue to 79 being right about the first machinist I was going to use?!!? LOL It'll all shake out when it's supposed to, and I'm in no hurry...just had some time away from other things to work on it. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 4:37pm
The cylinders are badly scored...it'll at least get a little bigger! ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 5:04pm
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I keep thinking on why would the engineers come up with this gear set that from what im reading a special cam too, why didnt they just stick with a roller chain and manufacture a opposite cam? its gotta be a normal cam that goes in this thing and the firing order is different ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 5:46pm
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reading the service manual it states both firing orders, with the HO version it used the automotive order. I think if you realy look at the crank relative to the firing orders there might not be an issue. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 5:49pm
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Edit, basically you need that cam, it is a special cam thru pcm, its not available in a roller it retails for $280.00
or there is other options such as the one you were looking into, but a lefty wont work ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 5:56pm
Would it be an option to switch from a gear drive to a chain, and use a RH cam? ------------- |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 6:02pm
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f-k it, flip the pump get a left hand prop and have the seal area re-ground on the crank, and set it up for a left hand engine
I was told it was a special cam and the reason CC's use right hand engines (this is what i was told from another reliable source) is back in the day Chris Crafts were flywheel forward and they copied from that (myth number 26) I still dont have the real reason why they use right hand engine....somebody please enlighten me. As for the issue of the cam, that's what i was told, i dont belive anything until i see it with my own eyes so im still open minded on the cam issue ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 6:06pm
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Anyone know where the part # is supposed to be on the old cam? And yea I know, look at it; but I don't see it. Most all of the other parts say GM and a #, but I don't see that here. On the back end it has hand tooled #'s that say 8899. There is a casting mark behind the 3rd lobe, 349...and I don't have the puller for the gear, so I hope it isn't under there?!!? LOL ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 6:10pm
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Tr, for the life of me i dont know, i would think you could do what your suggesting, but why the fudge do they have to be so diffucult, there's a reason they went with that gear and cam set up, and im curious as to why, I looked thru my merc stuff and they dont do that, and Jim bragg wants to cam his engine and it doesnt look like there are many options. my option is spinning it to the left
------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 6:11pm
Now that's spooky! I was just thinking of asking that...didn't want to wear out my welcome though. Hasn't it been said here that it's to counterbalance the driver? ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 6:13pm
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it may be proprietary to PCM, and not a GM part number, its becoming more clear why they went with this set up, because if you ever need one you have to go thru your local PCM dealer and pay twice of what it should go for ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 6:14pm
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myth 27, counter balance the driver...f-k the observer dont need one ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 6:18pm
I can tell you for certain that Ive skied more times without an observer than I have skied without a driver. Its a wash when you have an observer, but a boat with a LH prop leans pretty good when you drive it alone. It makes for an uneven wake for the skier. My '90 runs dead level at 25+ with me alone... just sayin'. My vote is for a chain drive and a RH cam. You get to keep the reverse rotation and dont have to buy a new prop! ------------- |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 6:19pm
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myth 24, in reverse the boat pulls towards the dock to unload, that was one of the better ones Ive heard ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 6:20pm
I was wondering why they went LH for the hotter motor(425hp). I don't dare say what I'm thinking about that, but plenty of manufacturers do what they can to predict revenue. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 6:22pm
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this was a big dollar decision at the round table as to why they should spin to the right, out of all the knowledge that spews on this forum someone has to know the true reason
Pete? ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 6:23pm
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Greg I do, wait 5 years on that trans lol ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 6:25pm
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Im with TR, but do they offer a roller in a right hand cam? ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-26-2007 at 6:26pm
We have only 2 as often as we have a boat full. TR, I haven't driven a LH ski boat...it's that bad of a lean? I ask people to help me balance the boat as it is! LOL ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |