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jon4pres View Drop Down
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    Posted: May-11-2006 at 3:33pm
What kind of gas do you use?
My manuel says 92 octane leaded gas and since leaded gas is kinda hard to find I have been running 89 octane unleaded and haven't had any problems. Should I be running higher octane.
82 2001

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-11-2006 at 4:12pm
your fine as long as it doesn't ping
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nautique2001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-11-2006 at 4:29pm
Can can add lead to your gas. Auto Zone or any marina should carry lead. Keeps your valves cool.

Ken
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote '72 mustang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-11-2006 at 8:02pm
I had my valve seats replaced with hardend seats so unleaded is fine.

I had an old jeep that required leaded fuel and used the STP lead subst*tute and never had any problems.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atmspltr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-11-2006 at 8:57pm
We're talking two different variables here...leaded gas was for valve seats, octane was high to allow higher compression ratios without premature detonation or 'pinging'. As long as the lower octane gas doesn't cause pinging, it should be OK. A faulty vacuum advance can cause pinging too. Lead additives are for pre '78(ish) motors that had valves designed for use with leaded fuels.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JEFF KOSTIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-11-2006 at 10:06pm
    I also believe that the old leaded gas you could run your timing higher without pinging for the same octane rating as unleaded. If I recall, the lead causes the gas to burn slower compared to straight unleaded of the same octane, making it appear as a higher octane. Any comments?? Im not totally sure.

                                      Jeff...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Munday Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-11-2006 at 10:24pm
I'm not sure about octane rating on leaded an unleaded are comparable.I also just tune for no ping.But I gotta an old flat head forklift and if you don't run lead it will stick valves.And runs poorly that way lol.

I think you should tune for whats available.If you tune for 89 or 91 and have to get 87 on the lake it will ping,and if you tune for 87 and buy 89 or 91 you're wasting your money cause it will be more effcient on 87...Just my .02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-11-2006 at 11:24pm
Lead (tetra-ethyl lead) was a cheap way to get the octane rating higher. When lead was outlawed, they started using more expensive alcohols and ethers (like MTBE--which I think was banned recently also).
Fuel is assigned the octane number by how much it makes a test engine knock. 89 Octane rating makes the test engine knock as much as a mixture of 89% Iso-Octane (a very good fuel) and 11% Heptane (a poor fuel). 93 Octane would knock as much as a mixture of 93% Iso-octanne amd 7% Heptane.
I run 89 octane now. Before the price of fuel went up so much, I ran 93.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 2_Nautiques Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-12-2006 at 8:58am
My 88 requires leaded gas and have been using a lead subst*tue from day one. 1200+ hrs no problems.
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David F View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-12-2006 at 9:58am
I think you could run that '88 on unleaded without problems. All that lead you are adding does not all burn and leave via the exhaust, some of it stays around and collects on things (like spark plugs).

Seems to me that by '88 Ford would certainly have been assemblying heads with hardened valve seats.

I have read studies that showed leaded fuel was only necessary on engines designed to use leaded fuel under severe operating conditions...something a marine engine qualifies IMHO. But, the studies also conclude that if you only add lead each third to sixth tankfull then you get all the protection necessary as the lead is collected on the valve seats and takes some time to wear off.

Seems to me there was a thread on this many months ago, try a search and see what we all had to say about it back then.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 2_Nautiques Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-12-2006 at 11:27am
David, I searched back and looks pretty much like the same statements back then as are here now. I know cars engines were using unleaded before marine engines were. Don't proclaim to know alot about this subject but here is my thought process:

1. The information that came with the boat in 88 said to use lead subst*tute.
2. The dealer supplied me with a cantainer of valtech when I bought the boat new.
3. Lead subst*tute is pretty cheap when purchased at a store like Walmart.
4. 1200+ hrs on the boat and runs perfect, have noticed no build up on the spark plugs.
5. This is a marine engine not an auto engine. It has to work hard all the time, it does not get to coast.

Just my .02$

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-12-2006 at 12:19pm
Yeh, I understand what you are saying and cannot really argue with you or fault you. And, I agree, marine engines work hard all the time.

Anecdotally (sp?), my friend has a '86 2001 that has the original engine and he has never used a lead subst*tute in the 5 years he has owned the boat...no signs of problems.

This what I think, but cannot prove: Boat/engine manufacturers are slow to change their documentation or recommendations even as the technology changes. I find it hard to believe that any Ford manufactured cylinder head in '88 (or even a few years before) did not have hardened valve seats.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 2_Nautiques Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-12-2006 at 1:16pm
A agree with you David, but I have to stay with what has worked for me. Now the 78 cuddy I just bought had a rebuild long block 350 installed in 93, am I correct in saying that unleaded is ok for this motor?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-12-2006 at 1:53pm
Ford seemed slow to give up the ghost on leaded fuel for some reason. I don't think Chevy or other engine manufactures were as stubborn. I always thought it was a political move on Ford's part.
I do know the incidence of children with high blood lead levels significantly dropped off in states as they switched to unleaded fuel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BigAir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-12-2006 at 3:51pm
Supposedly E85 (85% ethanol) has an octane rating of over 100. In my area E85 costs about 75 cents per gallon less than normal fuel but also yields about a 15 pecent reduction in fuel economy. What would happen if we filled the tank with it? What kind of damage could I expect?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 05 210 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-13-2006 at 2:44pm
I found this thread interesting,thought I'd throw my .02 in.The octane rating on gas pumps is derived from 2 different numbers,it's an average of the research octane and motor octane.The research octane number comes from a low compression low rpm test using a comparison fuel,the motor octane number comes from a higher compression,higher rpm test using a comparison fuel.The average of the two gives you pump octane(R+M divided by 2)as seen on the pump.Iso-octane and heptane are used in place of lead.Iso-octane increases the octane rating,heptane has an octane rating of zero,but helps determine the burnability of the gas.If you run a higher octane fuel than you need,you are wasting your money,if you run too little octane,you're damaging your engine.
   All of this is affected by alt*tude,temperature,ignition timing,compression ratios and engine load,spark plug heat range,etc.
   MTBE is still avail. in the northeast,but not for long.It absorbs water,burns hotter,and causes lean air/fuel ratios,and it can lead to fuel system deterioration(as any type of alcohol will).
As far as I know,Ethanol is produced by fermentation and is not recommended by any manufacturer in quant*ties above 10%.

   Sorry for such a long post,but it's pooring here and I'm bored to death.I hope this information is useful to someone.

     MIke
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dchris17 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-14-2006 at 9:21am
You can't run E85 (85% methanol, 15% gas) in a traditional gasoline engine without modifications. It will be interesting to see the growth of "Flex Fuel" engines (can run on E85 and gas) in marine applications over the next couple of years. Brazil has used E85 to completely eliminate imported oil from their economy (it's made from various crops) and is growing rapidly in the US as well. Walmart will soon carry it at all of their gas stations, and the big three are selling flex fuel vehicles overseas like pancakes. My next vehicle will be one!

Okay, that was a little off topic, but it's cold and rainy here too, and I still haven't got my Mustang 17 back together yet.

So, here's a question. What's the likelihood that running unleaded gas in my '74 302 is going to damage the valves? I've never put lead in the tank before (didn't know) - should I be?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-14-2006 at 11:00am
if the engine hasn't had any head work then with it being a 74 the lead sub would be wize atleast every other tank full.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BigAir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-15-2006 at 1:32am
I don't believe you will damage the valves. The damage will be to the head itself. A valve job on your motor really isn't that difficult or expensive for the average DIY'er. When they do the actual head work, they will install haredened valve seats. That will eliminate the problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BigAir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-15-2006 at 1:37am
Originally posted by dchris17 dchris17 wrote:

You can't run E85 (85% methanol, 15% gas) in a traditional gasoline engine without modifications.


Do you have any idea what the mods are? I'm guessing that the ethanol will damage rubber parts in the carb, but what about the hard parts? If the engine is fuel injected, I would think exhaust sensors and a different computer would be the only change. Is there such a thing as a E85 compatible carb? I would think that due to the higher octane rating, compression and timing could be pushed pretty far for some nice performance gains.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jon4pres Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-15-2006 at 10:16am
My engine was rebuilt in 1999 before I bought it. When they rebuilt it would they have changed the valves to run unleaded or is there any way to know?

My uncle works for a car dealer and he said his salesmen are reporting to him that a LOT of people are asking for flex fuel vehicles.
82 2001

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-15-2006 at 10:42am
I would think almost certainly yes. However, there is always a slight chance that the rebuilder simply reground the valve/valve seats and left them in place. But, my thoughts are if the engine needed rebuilding, then the valve seats were probably shot anyway and needed replacing so they were.

My wife's '02 Suburban has a flex Fuel Engine just because that is what was on the lot with everything else we wanted. I am looking at the window sticker now and the engine is not listed as an extra cost over the base vehicle cost, so if true, why arn't all the engines flex fuel? Incidently, we have never put any alcohol laced fuel in the burb simply because I have never seen any. So, I have this engine that can run cheaper fuel, but no place to buy it....typical!

My oppinion on putting E85 in a boat is do not do it. 10% alcohol, probably ok, but watch for rubber deterioration in the fuel system. You would think that all fuel system rubber components are manufactured these days to be tolerant of alcohol fuels, but who knows! Be safe!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dchris17 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-15-2006 at 6:56pm
Here's a link to a site that talks about converting engines to E85. It makes it seem that you have to change injectors, fuel lines, tanks, etc. but it has a definite bias against DIY'ers. That said, there is a Brazilian-made aftermarket kit talked about in Wikipedia
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-16-2006 at 8:39am
Almost all gas sold today has 10% ethenol in it so if you think you have never ran alcohol in your engine, you have and just don't know it. Flex fuel cars have been on the market for several years, and you may not see a charge listing for the engine, usually it's a different base price/model and you have to look at the top of the window sticker to tell the differnce.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-16-2006 at 9:09am
Maybe so, but I just went to the Chevy website and "built my own" '07 Surburban. I had my choice of several engines, one of them being a Flex Fuel engine. The website listed the engine as a $0 option. When I checked the box, it did not change the vehicle pricing. When I printed the form, it listed the Flex Fuel engine as a $0 option.

So again, why wouldn't someone make this choice?

Somewhere in the back of my mind, I remember hearing that alcohol laced fuels are not common in the South due to the heat evaporating off the alcohol in short order....very, very deep in the back of my memory
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-16-2006 at 9:29am
Well look at what is on the Fox News website today....Home made ethanol

Here is an excerpt from the article:
"Ethanol already is routinely added to gasoline in New York, Connecticut, California and the Midwest, and makes up about a third of the gas sold in the U.S., according to Kristin Brekke, a spokeswoman for the Sioux Falls, S.D.-based American Coalition of Ethanol.

Finding E85 gas is more of a problem. The 30 or so states with public E85 fueling stations are mostly in the corn belt."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dominique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-16-2006 at 6:05pm
The biggest reason NOT to run any fuel containing alcohol in any engine that is not built for it, is that the fuel components containing o'rings,needle valves with rubber seats,accelerator pumps and fuel pumps etc,will deteriorate and cause problems as well as damage.     Dominique
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 05 210 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-16-2006 at 8:34pm
   Actually,I think that ethanol is not what we have in gas in Maine.MTBE(methyltertiary butylether)yes,that's actually a word,is a product of crude oil.MTBE has been banned in most areas due to health issues,but in the southern counties of Maine they still sell it.It's got a shelf life of about 60 days and is only good for burning brush after that.I think most fuel systems designed now take this stuff into consideration and the labels on the boats are more of a C-Y-A thing.It's not likely ethanol will chew through your fuel system in a week,but you guys with older boats should inspect that stuff more frequently.My new boat has a sticker right next to the fuel filler that says"do not run any fuels containing alcohol".I guess I'll have to siphon that nitromethane back out of the tank
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dchris17 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-17-2006 at 6:47am
The brazilian E85 conversion kit I read about only does one thing: alter the pulse rate of the fuel injectors so that the air/fuel mixture is right. It doesn't say anything about hoses, pumps, etc. having problems. Now, the Detroit-sponsored website does make claims that a personal conversion is too complicated for the layman, but they say the same thing about other alternative fuels (biodiesel, vegetable oil, etc).

That makes me wonder if it might actually be pretty easy to run alcohol in a carbed motor by adjusting the carb.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 05 210 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-17-2006 at 8:03am
   You would have to double(approximately)the jet sizes,probably advance timing-alcohol has a longer burn lag time.I would guess by altering the pulse rate you would be accomplishing the same thing.Would it be worth it?Double the consumption.I'm not real familiar with pricing,etc on that stuff.Is the only real advantage not having to let oil companies control your life?iI guess that itself would make it worth it alone!
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