Election 2012 Is Comming

Phil, there is a clause in Christianty readings its called look the other way policy, the more i learn about religion, the more I think science is explaining religion.
one big thing i dont understand about religion is a guy coming back from Iraq, he does the deed of killing lets say 10 people, who pays the piper?
and then I learned the Pope let those Nazi bastards slip thru Italy over to Argentina.
I dont want to pull religion into the discussion, But, its only until recently I question the thought of religion, there are probably a thousand different versions of religion and only one of them can be right, so which one is it?

Dave the problem is you continually see things through the fox colored glasses.. and that is leading you to feel that we are gone far to the left but there are no real measurements that agree.
Your assertions of the government forcing the banks to make risky loans causing the housing bubble are not defendable by logic or facts.. Regardless of how many times you hear them on talk radio or fox. The regulation you are referring to is the 1977 Community Reinvestment act. It is at best a minor contributor to the housing bubble, it is greatly eclipsed by the unprecedented duration of low fed interest rates, and the complete and total lack of oversite of those who were packaging sub prime morgages into high rated investments. This created an unbelievably large profit motive which inspired the ridiculously lax and predatory lending practices that eventually brought down the whole house of cards.

You don’t need someone to go back and rewrite the history on this for you, you were there you saw interest rates driven to nothing by the fed and as a result a 1000 dollar a month mortgage got you a lot more house.. but since down payments were still with real money they had to come down..   CRA was strengthened in the 90s.. but it was weakened in 04.. only applied to federally insured banks which were not the predatory lenders and have not seen great amounts of default, have not been bailed out, and only account for a small percentage of the loans given during the time. This tragedy was driven by pure unregulated greed, that the bad actors have clutched to CRA to explain their bad behavior is typical.   You say it was the same banks accused of redlining that were brought back and accused of predatory lending.. really? Which ones.. around here we say pictures or it didn’t happen

When I read your posts I am seeing government of the businesses, by the businesses, and for the businesses. .and that my friend is not the sweet spot. The reason we the people have a government is to protect our abilities to pursue our liberties, and regulating the multinational corporation next door so they cannot dump chemicals into my lake is damn sure protecting my liberty. The government’s job is to create the conditions that the people need to create and achieve according to their abilities and their efforts.    And that takes laws, but it also takes people to enforce those laws and right now we have been given the gift of regulators who we pay to represent the people but do not. The vast majority of “regulations” you refer to have been written by the corporations for all intents and purposes. I have been on a few industry committees myself where we propose regulations and submit them to be incorporated in law. It used to be a predictable game, a standard would go around for review that would cause us to do some real work, we would ask for more leeway and lower bars than we needed, so that the actual regulation that came back would be somewhere reasonably in the middle. For the last 10 years whatever the industry group submitted made it to law, we were often shocked that they didn’t pull out the big exceptions we had stuck in.

Worse yet all the energy star regulations that did get written were self-certifications as there were no regulators to actually test them. The less reputable companies, or the smaller companies with less to lose simply started putting false labels on products and selling them to you and me. You buy a refrigerator to save energy and the electric bill actually goes up.. gee wouldn’t it be nice if they couldn’t do that to you, or someone made sure that the label on the front actually meant something? . This stuff is real and it happened no one tested energy star appliances for a decade when they started testing again after Obama took office there were very few that passed.. if you bought an LG refrigerator, friedrich air conditioner or any one of dozes of others during the 00s you got taken.

Republicans tell us don’t worry corporations wouldn’t do that to the people, I mean people own the corporations why would they screw themselves. People like you and I may own them but the owners don’t run them and the people running them cannot be assumed to be acting in the best interests of the corporation or the owner. YOU NEED REGULATION.   

My other personal slap in the face example of the lack of regulation over the last decade in my industry is the change in the fan motor supplier base.. for decades there were 4 main us manufacturers of electric motors. There was a market in place, leadtime, price, and technology constantly lead you to switch suppliers to meet your needs. Whoever had the newest production equipment could typically produce the most cost effective design and this would change every couple years. Some moved plants to mexico and then had quality problems so you would move to a competitor for the next project.. yadda yadda. Eventually the number two guy bought the largest player in the industry and shut down the domestic plants and consolidated production in mexico and china.. this increased prices/ lead times and caused quality problems so we ran to the number three guy on new projects.. two years later we couldn’t believe that regulators said nothing when the now number two guy was also bought by the same company issued another round of price increases and product discontinuances that caused us supply disruptions to the point where we had to lay people off waiting for motors. So we ran to the historically 4th place supplier.. who frankly has been an industry joke for 15 years.. but now in comparison well that was all there was, except for going directly to an overseas supplier. .. which we also had to do, and carry more inventory to deal with the longer leadtimes from overseas . Two weeks ago the 4th place guy announced they are now part of the same company as the first 3, and that they would be closing their US plants and discontinuing models. The first acquisition was sketchy, the second unbelievable, the last is a complete farce. There is no way if we were being regulated at an unprecedented scale these 4 electric motor companies would have been allowed to be combined. It is the definition of a monopoly and it is not serving the market… and every person and company in the country will pay more money for everything that moves air because of it. Want to try and compete with this monopoly… good luck anyone that buys a motor from you will lose access to every other motor they need to buy because the monopoly has forced them to sign long term exclusive supply agreements or be effectively put out of business. If anyone is interested I will email you the names of the actual companies so you can fact check me..

Even if you don’t believe in that type of regulation I don’t see how you can argue that we are at the far extreme end of regulation, that is just an excuse that has been made up to justify the fact that tax decreases have not worked.   

So no we don’t have the same view of where the pendulum has swung.. when the tax rates are now lower than when Reagan left office and large corporations and wall street are getting away with murder, and there is no one to inspect the mines or the oil platforms.. and from conservative news sources I constantly hear that we have historically high taxes and regulation I feel like I am stuck in an Orwell novel. These are people that are willing to lie to get their way, they say this openly, and their followers blindly run along saying that the ends justify the means.. except how are you so sure you in on what the ends are that these liars are trying to achieve? Right now it is clear that the republicans in power are willing to sabatoge the economy to make Obama look bad, this shouldnt be a surprise to us Mitch McConnell told us that defeating Obama was his number one priority. Not lowering taxes, not creating jobs, not saving social security, not preventing terrorism, not winning the war in iraq.. Defeating Obama is more important and if that means a few million people stay unemployed a few more years while we watch the countries infrastructure continue to fall apart well then gosh darn it that is what has to happen.

As for government employees.. they work for us the people who created government for us and by us. We should expect good return on our investment. Education for our young, infrastructure upon which to conduct our commerce, protection from those who would do us harm, be those individuals, other countries, or the corporations that we own and created but do not spend the time to run ourselves. I also believe that for the markets to function efficiently and allow every person to achieve to their potential and level of effort the government also should provide a basic level of safety net including health carePutting people that don’t believe in government in charge of government the last ten years didn’t decrease the number of government employees it just decreased the number of good government employees that actually provided us a return on our investment.

If the government does these things effectively then people can producemore, and more efficiently.. and that grows the economy which increases demand which inspires more production to meet said demand. Again businesses do not create demand.

If you are still reading.. geez go look at a boat or something. As for the bible thumping portion of the debate and the applicability of faith to government my mind goes right to the words of the man himself..
Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is Gods..
Which rules out those who seem to think that god was looking for some sort of theocracy to take over government.. but if you do think as I do that our country should still have a Christian moral center then I don’t know how I am supposed to ignore the fact that we consider the republicans the true Christians because they hate the gays or because they tell us they will do something about abortion but never do more than

Then I see people like Perry making a great show of having public prayer meetings and I hear in the back of my head..

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

And when I think these same people espouse policies that would increase taxes on the poor while protecting the rich, and have no plan to provide insurance for the 50 million people without out it
I think

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

But most importantly I look at the whole of human history and see that in every case where government and religion were combined the results are war and killing falsely carried out in the name of religion. Jesus wanted people to choose his path not to have it chosen for them.   Anyone who claims to have his province that is using it to put them in a position of earthly power is a liar of the worst type and shouldn’t be trusted to lead themselves much less others.   

And while we are at it why is it these supposed Christians mine the old testament for their guidance but ignore the teachings of Christ himself, what qualifies someone to sit in judgement of their brother … if you truly asked yourself WWJD we would see a lot less hate being spewed.

We talk about democrats being for abortion and republicans being against abortion but if you do not favor having a safety net that allows someone with an unplanned pregnancy to be able to stay off the streets then what life are you dooming the mother and the child to? If you do not support regulations requiring health insurance providing birth control are you really against abortion.

It ain’t easy to run a country where everyone has an equal chance to make their fortune. Can we go back to the time when we talked about the education and experience of our leaders and not whether they hate gays and foreigners enough.

JoeinNY wrote: Dave the problem is you continually see things through the fox colored glasses.. and that is leading you to feel that we are gone far to the left but there are no real measurements that agree.....................

Ahhh, a voice of reason!

phospher wrote: JoeinNY wrote: Dave the problem is you continually see things through the fox colored glasses.. and that is leading you to feel that we are gone far to the left but there are no real measurements that agree..................... Ahhh, a voice of reason!

Thats how sick you guys are. Cnn, and NBC,and CBS the communist channelS, they support the democratic parties, uuuum,mmmm I think they are labeld as progressive or socialist.. FOX tells the truth. Plus we have morals on that channel.

skicat2001 wrote: Thats how sick you guys are. Cnn, and NBC,and CBS the communist channelS, they support the democratic parties, uuuum,mmmm I think they are labeld as progressive or socialist.. FOX tells the truth. Plus we have morals on that channel.

You are by far the most radical posting on these forums. FOX tells the truth and has morals? Fox is an entertainment news channel. Do you know who Roger Ailes is? This is a recent quote from him:

""I hired Sarah Palin because she was hot and got ratings" - Roger Ailes

In other words, the FoxNews founder cares only about ratings. If he didn't, do you really think he would hire people like Glenn Beck? Get with the program bud and take off those FoxNews blinders. Most people don't view the world from your ego-centric perspective.

62 wood wrote: whats wrong with ratings? thats the cash cow... ALL channels would love more!

Which is why cable news sucks.

eric lavine wrote: are you ready for some football? would they've yanked it on Fox?

Aint watchin' no more football without HankJr .

62 wood wrote: eric lavine wrote: are you ready for some football? would they've yanked it on Fox? Aint watchin' no more football without HankJr .

Yes sir..

HANK WILLIAMS ON OBAMA

skicat2001 wrote: phospher wrote: 62 wood wrote: whats wrong with ratings? thats the cash cow... ALL channels would love more! Which is why cable news sucks. Answer this, Why has Obama tried to get rid of Fox period?? Because Fox follows more of the conservative views and polocys. We like to make fun of CNN and MSNBC because they hate captilism. We love it on FOX! So how why will you vote for president that will not put his right hand over his heart during the American Anthem?? I loved it when FOX showed how NBC(cowards), cut out during the "Pledge of Alligance" God, and liberty for all. CNN and NBC forgot it is on the United States Currency. "IN GOD WE TRUST"

Cat,

Have you seen OUTFOXED? Check it out man. Should be no problem if you really think so highly of FOXNews right?

Joe, I rarely watch FOX, but Yes, I see through a conservative perspective just as you see through a liberal one. The housing problem staterted with the act you mentioned. I think watching the congressional hearings on read lining was the start of my asking the questions that moved me from being a properly endoctrinated liberal youth into an adult conservative. I remember thinking why is the government telling private companies that they need to write loans that will not likely get paid back. In effect as a stupid kid I saw this whole thing coming. Yes there were many bad actors in the total picture, but the bundled securities would never have been able to be sold if they had not been backed up by the government. The whole thing statrted with the government thinking they knew beter than the banks how to handle loans. They tweeked the system, and set up new rules, Business followed the new rules, and maxed out profits just like business is supposed to. Do you think our legislators are so nieve they never anticipated greed could come into play? I think they expected it and used it untill the house of cards fell apart, and then they blame the results of the frankestien they created on Wall street to cover their own butts. Why do you think Obama was so quick to bail out the wallstreet that he has so much contempt for? Because he knew where the paper trail leads and wanted the whole thing swept under the rug. The democrats built the shakey foudation that the house of cards was built on.

Again Joe, business is the only thing that can create demand. everything the government spends is first taken from business. take a dollar from my pocket and put it in yours, and you ae left with on dollar between the two of us. no increase, never will be, but take a business, give them reason (or get out of their way) to invest the dollar in a factory for you and I to work in, now we have a new factory purchased, two more permanent jobs, you and I spending our new salary, thats new demand, and it builds and encourages more.

Go back to caveman days, each caveman providing for himself and his family. he is a good hunter gather, so he has lots of kids who he teaches to be good hunter gatheres. That is growth, with no government. Now picture the caveman elects himself king, stops hunting and gathering to run his family kingdom, no food comes in, He tries to create demand by ordering that food appear, but government only regulates, it can not provide anything that was not taken from someone who actually produces.

OverMyHead wrote: I remember thinking why is the government telling private companies that they need to write loans that will not likely get paid back. In effect as a stupid kid I saw this whole thing coming. Yes there were many bad actors in the total picture, but the bundled securities would never have been able to be sold if they had not been backed up by the government. The whole thing statrted with the government thinking they knew beter than the banks how to handle loans. They tweeked the system, and set up new rules, Business followed the new rules, and maxed out profits just like business is supposed to. Do you think our legislators are so nieve they never anticipated greed could come into play? I think they expected it and used it untill the house of cards fell apart, and then they blame the results of the frankestien they created on Wall street to cover their own butts. Why do you think Obama was so quick to bail out the wallstreet that he has so much contempt for? Because he knew where the paper trail leads and wanted the whole thing swept under the rug. The democrats built the shakey foudation that the house of cards was built on.

I guess you still haven't gotten around to your latest assignment of watching inside job? What you mention is a very very small part of it.

Here, this is a good interview of Charles Ferguson director of "Inside Job" Interview: Charles Ferguson

Huge profits for loaning OPM (other people's money), along with letting the fox guard the hen house is what caused the housing crisis and mortgage meltdown. The government may have played a hand in it, but it was mostly caused by the players in the lending industry. Starting in the 1990's it became the norm to let the salesman making a commission on the mortgage to control the processing of the loan. Sub prime loans paid huge commissions, thus highly motivated salesmen (loan officers), to see that the loans closed. Eric, if I paid you $500 to $1,500 per hundred thousand or more to loan out millions, would you be most interested in closing loans or making sure the OPM was safe? I have a feeling FFM Mortgage Co. would be loaning out alot of money.

If I knew, certainly the gov knew

eric lavine wrote: If I knew, certainly the gov knew

Not if they were sent memos. The Attorney General doesn't read his. Nancy Pelosi says vote on the bill then you can see whats in it. Eric you just may know more than the governmentdoes and quicker too!

I cant ever remember something of intelligence coming out of Bush's mouth, thats just me though, I really think he is still tipping the bottle, can see it in his face.
when i read these approved loan apps, hundreds of them I was in amazement and just thinking to myself how the fck are these people going to pay these loans back, there was a ton of seconds and even third mortgages mixed in the bunch too, but then it was like a light switch,
I think ive went thru this before and I just moved a buddy out after 2 years of no payments to the bank, here is the thing the bank still holds the note and do not lose a fcn dime, he was in there for approximately 6 years making the 1000.00 a month payment, he paid 126k for the place, he gave the bank 72k over the 6 year stay, it Sheriff saled and the bank bought the place for 100k, it will relist for 130k, they will sell it and start to rake in another 1200.00 a month.
funny, nowadays the banks will let you sit in these foreclosed houses, they dont want them sitting empty, sht will get stolen, the heat goes off, I hear stories that people havnt made payments in 5 years and are still sitting in the house, ths sht makes economic sense to me, sit in a free house for 5 years, dump that cash into a interest accumulating account.
Banks never ever lose once in a while they get clipped for 1200 bucks from a drug dealer robbing them, but, its probably insured.
We protect the very country which leads us into more turmoil, towers falling, economic collapse, the average American gets there sht piped in daily on the 46 and they start to believe the sht. It baffles me, im tied into the banks for my house and the business and I talk to the same girls every month at the bank when my payment goes past the due date, on a personal level which the conversation leads too, they are behind on thier house payments, driving some POS that they cant afford to throw a new set of brakes on....what a viscous cycle