might not make river run |
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TX Foilhead ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: February-01-2009 Location: Kingsland TX Status: Offline Points: 2076 |
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Wow, my post sounded a bit negative on the O2 sensor. Not the case, great tuning tool, just not something you can run and depend on all the time in a boat like you would in a car.
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JPASS ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: June-17-2013 Location: Orlando Status: Offline Points: 2283 |
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Didn't come off negative at all. |
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'92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique
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lakedog55 ![]() Gold Member ![]() Joined: November-11-2010 Location: Lake Weir Fl Status: Offline Points: 835 |
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Engine is in machine shop finally, came to conclusion of Iit being a detonation problem.
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Lakedog55
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lakedog55 ![]() Gold Member ![]() Joined: November-11-2010 Location: Lake Weir Fl Status: Offline Points: 835 |
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another shot of the piston not that great
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Lakedog55
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81nautique ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: September-03-2005 Location: Big Rock, Il Status: Offline Points: 5770 |
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Thats sound advice, I had an o2 sensor in my 81 ski with a meter that I could plug into a laptop and record basic a/f ratios. It worked great but for a very short while, the slightest little hint of moisture and an $80 sensor was toast. Placement of the sensor is different depending on the manifolds you're running but with logs I couldn't keep the sensor dry so once I got the boat dialed in and the sensor went bad I never replaced it again. It's a fun tool but typically once you're dialed in it's not really a necessity unless you make changes to your setup, ie different prop, jets, tuneup. |
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You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails
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81nautique ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: September-03-2005 Location: Big Rock, Il Status: Offline Points: 5770 |
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I'd say so and you better figure out why before you light the new one up. Condition of Carb...are secondaries opening, power valve(did it lean out at WOT,Probably), dist, timing (Get a good light and know your base and how much your dist adds to total advance) maybe pay to have the dist spun and calibrated, fuel quality..water in fuel..change your filter/separator, over rev?..what prop is on the boat? Also what plugs are in the motor...stock heat range?, did the motor burn oil? maybe someone put in hotter plugs because the boat used a little oil and they were trying to stop a fouling problem. Spark plugs are heat sinks and the cooler the plug the more heat it pulls from the engine...when people go to a hotter plug they don't always understand what they're changing. Hotter plug means higher cylinder temps and the engine losses ability to cool itself. Just some random thoughts but go back all dead stock with all settings because that's worked for years. you can tweak performance once you know you're safe. I think I recall you were playing with timing at one point so this may even be self-inficted but live and learn. Start with all stock settings for timing while breaking the new motor in and maybe get a few good hands on it at river run. Plug checks, plug checks.... |
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You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails
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gun-driver ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4112 |
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That'll buff out maybe a little wet sand, buff and slap it back in.
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lakedog55 ![]() Gold Member ![]() Joined: November-11-2010 Location: Lake Weir Fl Status: Offline Points: 835 |
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That's what I was thinking. Maybe a little jb weld.
no before it goes back together. It will be checked. Was already planning on doing top end. So new plugs, and wires, also a new distributor. Intake, heads, and cam. going to try out a quick fuel carb as well. I wont be playing with the timing anymore. |
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Lakedog55
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81nautique ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: September-03-2005 Location: Big Rock, Il Status: Offline Points: 5770 |
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Well that's just it, you do need to play with timing so I think you get it but you don't exactly get it so I'll be kind. By buying a new Dist you are playing with timing so how is it set? You don't know as of right now so find out. Make sure you know how to measure and set the mechanical advance before you even drop it in the motor. I'm guessing on your 351 that you will want 10 degrees of initial and another 24 of advance. you're also buying an unknown carb so how is it set up? you don't know as of right now so find out. How is it jetted and what PV is in it? Honestly I would stick with the stock Holley Marine unit spec'd for your motor. Even with a slight bump in compression and a slightly hotter cam the stock holley will perform just fine right out of the box. And let us what plug are you going to put in the P heads so we can verify the heat range. |
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You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails
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lakedog55 ![]() Gold Member ![]() Joined: November-11-2010 Location: Lake Weir Fl Status: Offline Points: 835 |
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Quick fuel is jetted basically same as holley it is a 600cfm I think it is 6.5 on pv. But will have to check that.Distributor is a dui. Pretty sure from talking with them and sending the specs on cam and everything they were going to have it pretty close. Plugs for heads have not decided on yet but was thinking auto lite 705. Open to all comments and I thank all of you guys. My wife will kill me if I spend any more on this little project.
Mike. |
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Lakedog55
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TX Foilhead ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: February-01-2009 Location: Kingsland TX Status: Offline Points: 2076 |
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Here's a great article about what caused that.
http://www.streetrodstuff.com/Articles/Engine/Detonation/index.php Incase the link didn't work. http://www.streetrodstuff.com/Articles/Engine/Detonation/index.php |
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TX Foilhead ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: February-01-2009 Location: Kingsland TX Status: Offline Points: 2076 |
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Alan, if I remember correctly you had your wideband in a ring at the back of the log. Everything I've read says to mount them about 45 degrees from verticals so the moisture will roll off. That's not possible with PCM manifolds where everything would have to be mounted from the side to find a flat surface. Since it's only for tuning purposes I wonder if you removed it and made sure it was dry before you started the boat would prolong its life.
I think Robert (E4ODNut) runs his boat in closed loop with O2 sensors in the side of the elbows, maybe he'll be along to shed some light on the long term durability. |
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lakedog55 ![]() Gold Member ![]() Joined: November-11-2010 Location: Lake Weir Fl Status: Offline Points: 835 |
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It keeps getting better. Machine shop does not want to build on my block. They are saying it is to corroded to clean. It did not run hot before. Highest temps I saw were around 165.
any ideas? Or does anyone have a block laying around? Mike |
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Lakedog55
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lakedog55 ![]() Gold Member ![]() Joined: November-11-2010 Location: Lake Weir Fl Status: Offline Points: 835 |
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Found a virgin block for a 100. Rolling the dice but what the heck.
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Lakedog55
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MrMcD ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3600 |
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Couple notes, that piston is classic detonation. Boat engines work hard and can't use as much timing as a passenger car. See what PCM recommends and stay close to that number for total timing.
I don't know of any O2 sensors that will work in the marine exhaust. Reading Spark Plugs has helped tune engines for years. Check at the Champion Spark Plug web site for pictures that show reading spark plugs to help tune an engine. If the plug run is too hot it will start to glow red and the red glow will set off detonation before the spark reaches the plug. Too cold of a plug and it may not run hot enough to avoid fouling out. Again, PCM has years of development on Marine Engines, follow their lead and you will avoid problems. People jump in a boat and don't hesitate to run it wide open, sometimes for more than 30 seconds. Very few engines outside Marine are every expected to live when exposed to frequent wide open runs. For these reasons Marine engines are built to a different standard than Passenger Car or even Performance Engines. To melt the piston like that you had two flame fronts colliding and they torched your piston. Don't focus on just one cause, your entire engine could have been tuned perfectly and still had this failure if one of your spark plug wires was cross firing into another cylinder. Hope you get it back to perfect again soon. Good weather is coming. |
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lakedog55 ![]() Gold Member ![]() Joined: November-11-2010 Location: Lake Weir Fl Status: Offline Points: 835 |
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going to try again, old block was so corroded, just not worth taking the chance. found nice block totally stock.
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Lakedog55
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backfoot100 ![]() Platinum Member ![]() Joined: January-03-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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Mike,
Help me understand something here. You had the block bored .20 over to start with and then put it all together once already. Then you ran it how long before the piston fragged? An hour, two hours, ten hours, more? Even if it was 100 hours, how in the world can a block go from being good to too corroded (on the inside) in that time frame???? Unless you were running pure water where oil should have been for a long time, I just don't see how a block gets to unusable under those circumstances or am I missing something? |
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When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.
Eddie |
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lakedog55 ![]() Gold Member ![]() Joined: November-11-2010 Location: Lake Weir Fl Status: Offline Points: 835 |
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Missing something, I was never in this block. Did some boat trading a couple of years ago and this motor was supposed to have 300 hrs on it. Someone was definitely in it but way before that. I will try and get a picture of block. It has been ran through once. There is no space between cylinder walls at all. Totally gummed up. I think this explains why my oil has been changing colors so fast and why I was getting a huge heat soak. Anyway new block looks great.
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Lakedog55
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backfoot100 ![]() Platinum Member ![]() Joined: January-03-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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Gotcha. So all you did was cam, heads and intake? This wasn't a complete rebuild then? The .20 over thing was messing with my head.
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When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.
Eddie |
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lakedog55 ![]() Gold Member ![]() Joined: November-11-2010 Location: Lake Weir Fl Status: Offline Points: 835 |
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Eddie,
My plan was to do the top end, the bottom supposedly had 300 hrs on it with the 20 over already done. But when I took it apart that's when the issues arose. I know it seems like I should be done with it by now. I have had the cam for 2 years. Mike |
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Lakedog55
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MrMcD ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3600 |
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The detonation that destroyed that piston may not have injured your crank, cam or any of the lower end. If that is the case you may be able to run the crank without turning it again to another oversize.
Should save you some money. The 300 hour old parts may be perfect. New pistons, block and back in business but look hard at your old parts to find information about the failure. Your machine shop has probably seen this issue 100 times and can help you ID your problem. |
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lakedog55 ![]() Gold Member ![]() Joined: November-11-2010 Location: Lake Weir Fl Status: Offline Points: 835 |
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here we go again
![]() ![]() ready to get this thing back together. |
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Lakedog55
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lakedog55 ![]() Gold Member ![]() Joined: November-11-2010 Location: Lake Weir Fl Status: Offline Points: 835 |
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not sure on distributor
its at the shop but i think they put 24 degrees in it. Got my DUI last night. a lot less than my last one ![]() Did not even leave the house |
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Lakedog55
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lakedog55 ![]() Gold Member ![]() Joined: November-11-2010 Location: Lake Weir Fl Status: Offline Points: 835 |
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Lakedog55
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lakedog55 ![]() Gold Member ![]() Joined: November-11-2010 Location: Lake Weir Fl Status: Offline Points: 835 |
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![]() cam in ![]() clearcoat on intake |
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Lakedog55
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JPASS ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: June-17-2013 Location: Orlando Status: Offline Points: 2283 |
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Looking good. Think you'll be done in time for SJRR?
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'92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique
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lakedog55 ![]() Gold Member ![]() Joined: November-11-2010 Location: Lake Weir Fl Status: Offline Points: 835 |
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Will know in the first fifteen seconds of this thing running.
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Lakedog55
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lakedog55 ![]() Gold Member ![]() Joined: November-11-2010 Location: Lake Weir Fl Status: Offline Points: 835 |
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stuck a little
which way do these head gaskets go? front tabs but look like two lefts ![]() ![]() |
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Lakedog55
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81nautique ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: September-03-2005 Location: Big Rock, Il Status: Offline Points: 5770 |
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Front is front, one will look upside down. Proceed.
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You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails
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MrMcD ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3600 |
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Please make sure you use Marine Head gaskets. Fresh water fed engines have no rust protection in the cooling water so Marine Stainless Steel body head gaskets are used to avoid rust failure.
Closed systems that run antifreeze do not need Marine head gaskets but Open systems do need them to avoid rust out and failure. |
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