80 SN 351W issues FINAL UPDATE |
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sailsail
Senior Member Joined: December-08-2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 101 |
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My timing marks don't go above thirty. They start at 10ATC and go through zero to 30 BTC
I assume it should be at 10 before top dead center at idle and then thirty BTC at 3500 rpm? Or should I guess on 35/36? After paint for tonight's timing run (prolly in two hours if I don't do it in the AM) |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3600 |
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Sounds like your making progress.
If your timing light is adjustable and you are setting base timing leave the light at zero and time the engine to 10. It is important that the engine be at idle when this is set so you won't have any mechanical advance coming in messing you up. I think my 78 351W said to set timing at idle 650 RPM. Set the timing, readjust the idle back to 650 and check the timing to make sure it did not move. Now idle is set at a true 10 degrees base timing. Next turn the dial on the adjustable timing light to 35 degrees and check your timing again with the engine now turning 3,500 Rpm. Looking at your marks this time the timing should be pointing at 0, zero. This will confirm your distributor is operating correctly and advancing to 35 degrees at 3,500 rpm. When watching the timing Mark move as you bring up the RPM you should see it advance smoothly and consistently . |
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sailsail
Senior Member Joined: December-08-2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 101 |
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found them,,,,, No fancy sticker like I am used too and I can't read crap in this texas sun. I started her up and played with the distro to see what sounded right but will wait till this evening when the sun is down.
Questions: 1. I should leave my timing light advance set at 0 correct? 2. No load idle RPM should be 600? I was able to get the RPM back down to 400rpm but the boat was shaking a bunch... Before with the issues I had to set the idle screw at ~1000 for it to run.. I don't know if timing is the issue at play here but regardless I need to get it fixed first. |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Online Points: 21129 |
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15/16
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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I feel you should rotate the engine. A breaker bar and a socket works great on the crank bolt. |
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Duane in Indy
Platinum Member Joined: October-26-2015 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1578 |
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Never seen one yet that was not marked TDC |
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Keep it as original as YOU want it
1978 Mustang (modified) |
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GottaSki
Grand Poobah Joined: April-21-2005 Location: NE CT Status: Offline Points: 3333 |
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All you need to find is tdc and use a timing light with dial-in advance.
Else, measure the dampener, and order an adhesive timing tape of the correct length to place on it. Or, locate TDC ,and measure dampener circumference. ratio 10/360 and 36/360 to the total circumference, and you can calculate the arc length from TDC for the two targets, and mark these on the dampener. |
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
River Rat to Mole |
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sailsail
Senior Member Joined: December-08-2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 101 |
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What's my course of action if there are no visible timing marks on the harmonic balancer ? I have not rotated it through yet but I have a bad feeling ....
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GottaSki
Grand Poobah Joined: April-21-2005 Location: NE CT Status: Offline Points: 3333 |
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Yes it all matters, else you will have drivability symptoms
aim for 10 initial at 650-700 rpm, and final 35-36 should be all in by 3000rpm. If you can't get those numbers, then something is amiss and we'll guide you through it |
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
River Rat to Mole |
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sailsail
Senior Member Joined: December-08-2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 101 |
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What should the timing be at idle, what about at high rpm? Also what RPM to i set it to when I adjust the timing. Does the idle timing matter anyway? I don't think there is a way to adjust the curve on these.
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sailsail
Senior Member Joined: December-08-2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 101 |
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You were correct. I remember about 3 or 4 of them being in order. |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10709 |
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It should be RR. It wouldn't run at all if it was normal rotation with the RR firing order.
You did mention that it was rebuilt in the 90's, maybe somebody used an early 302 cam which has the firing order you mentioned. To check your firing order look at the thread in the link, On page 2 about halfway down there is a post on how to check your firing order with some small rags over the plug holes You could do that to see what firing order your cam requires. Read the whole thread, there may be some similarities with your problem link |
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sailsail
Senior Member Joined: December-08-2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 101 |
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I am assuming.
It is a 1980 SN, that's reverse rotation right? The distributor is outside hanging upside-down with a fresh coat of blue paint ;) |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10709 |
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I think you need to paint it Mopar baby blue and then change your firing order to 1 8 4 5 6 2 7 3 and give it a shot
If this engine is an 80 RR 351 with the original cam that would be your firing order. What you listed today and a while back is the early 302 RR firing order I looked back thru this thread and didn't see any mention of the firing order discrepancy. Like you said, counter clockwise around the cap and your cylinder numbering is correct |
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sailsail
Senior Member Joined: December-08-2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 101 |
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Well it gets better.
In order to check my distributor I removed it and I marked all the wires on the cap... which quickly rubbed away :-( fortunately I know where 1 is. The million dollar question. Looking down at the distributor going counter clockwise should it be 1 8 7 3 6 2 4 5 assuming looking aft (disturber in front of me) cylinder one is the first cylinder on the left hand side, followed by 2 3 4 and cylinder 5 is the first cylinder on the right hand side (again looking aft) followed by 6 7 8? Thanks again! you are guys are amazing THE BEST PART. When removing the distributor a screw fell down into the opening.... It took me three hours to fish it out: |
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sailsail
Senior Member Joined: December-08-2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 101 |
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I was on my work week (I work seven days on seven days off). I just moved the boat back to the driveway and will start your troubleshooting tomorrow.
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10709 |
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Like you just asked in another thread.............................updates?
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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You mean like my Avalanche from Mexico or like a Toyota or vw from the US
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WinterTurtle
Groupie Joined: July-18-2017 Location: Summerfield, NC Status: Offline Points: 79 |
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As long as it's American! |
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1979 Southwind 18 351w
Not Running - All Potential! |
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fgroce
Senior Member Joined: July-05-2016 Location: Georgia Status: Offline Points: 350 |
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I happen t agree it is a known fact that Ford engines will not run well, they tend to skip and have bad plugs when painted Chevy orange. A can for Ford blue will probably fix the problem with no other work needed. Hope you get done in time to run it at the lake before it gets cold.
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FGroce
88 Ski Nautique For 28 years Now 2002 Ski Nautique |
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 943 |
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First, I think you may be correct about the orange LOL. Second, I've had Chevy's and Fords both since before I started high school (yes, I'm showing my age ... and also that I live in the middle of the US). One thing though I've never been is a Ram .... |
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3600 |
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I'm not positive but I don't think a Ford will run correctly if painted Chevy Orange.
(I run the 351W and it is a great engine but I'm still a Chevy guy at heart) |
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sailsail
Senior Member Joined: December-08-2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 101 |
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I'm sure they will get over it. |
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MourningWood
Gold Member Joined: June-13-2014 Location: NorCal Status: Offline Points: 889 |
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A little bit of my morning coffee came out my nose.... :)
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3600 |
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Wow, Chevy Orange on a Ford engine. The Ford Blue guys are going to have a heart attack!
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sailsail
Senior Member Joined: December-08-2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 101 |
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Will do! |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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When you check the timing and see if the advance isn't rusted up, that's a good time to see if you have points or an EI conversion in the distributor. |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Online Points: 21129 |
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Wow, intake manifold replacement without pulling the distributor... would never have thought to try that. Interesting approach.
I agree that you need to go through your ignition system, the timing is especially suspect. |
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sailsail
Senior Member Joined: December-08-2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 101 |
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The intake manifold.... IE I had to remove the entire intake manifold to replace them. I was positive (at the time) that there was in intake leak causing the #7 cylinder to run lean and meld down that plug. This may have been un unrelated issue. I did not realize that the plug could still operate worn down like that, This may or may not have been a cause or result of my engine issues. On the plus side I was able to make sure the rods were not bent, I rotated the engine and watched them all move with no irregularities. The engine started and ran smoother after this but was still skipping at idle. When the throttle was advanced at no load it worked fine. On the water (with load) she would not opperate above 13-1800 RPM, I would try to quickly advance the throttle multiple times to get more gas into the engine from the accelerator pump. When did this she would try to accelerate but then backfire. I also replaced the spacer gaskets. I did not clean out the carburetor as I did this last year. The fuel filter was not clogged but I changed it anyway (before the lake run yesterday) The boat ran perfect two weeks ago. I'm starting to think I never had an overheat ( I did not check the temp when I thought it happened) and that I over reacted.
They are in the same location they have always been in. When I replaced them (the old ones had very different ohm ratings...) I did it one at a time. I have no reason to believe they are out of order. The dummy spark checker thing shows all cylinders getting spark. I guess my next step is to start her up under no load and rotate the distributor to see if that clears up the occasional missing at idle. If it does then I know there is a timing issue.
I honestly don't know. I'll try to check soon. It may be a day or two. I'm busy with the sailboat and work at the moment. Let me know what else I should be looking at next time I uncover it. Thanks again for all your help! |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10709 |
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I'm confused about which gasket or gaskets you replaced.
Was it the intake manifold to the cylinder head gaskets or maybe the manifold to carburetor/spacer gasket. Like Mourning wood mentioned and I mentioned a while back
Looking at your old posts/threads, I don't know if you have points or electronic ignition, but a good check of the basics just might do wonders for you. That would be for the ignition system and the fuel system I could also ask the obvious like did you put the plug wires on in the right firing order, but I won't |
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