De-winterizing startup trouble

OptimaJim wrote: I appreciate your patience guys and hopefully, I'll have some answers that will make sense. I've had this question come up before and our engineering group's consistent response starts with asking what kind of a battery someone believes is a deep-cycle battery, as the vast majority of batteries that would show up in automotive or marine applications (at least most boats that can be towed behind your vehicle) are not true “deep-cycle” batteries, like those found in stand-alone power systems. The "deep-cycle" batteries most folks use are like our YellowTops or BlueTops with light-gray cases, that are designed for starting vehicles, but can also handle being deeply-discharged with trolling motors or other electrical accessories. The standard line is that as long as these batteries meet or exceed the OE requirements for cranking amps or marine cranking amps (CCA isn't really used much in marine), the battery will have no negative impact on the starter, alternator or anything else. The caveat to that is that the rated cranking amps on the label may not come out of the battery, if it isn't fully-charged, which is a very common issue in vehicles (and vessels) that only see occasional and/or seasonal use. I wanted to cover off on this question from the other parts of the electrical triangle, as my friend, John, at Powermaster Performance likes to call it, so I called him with the same question. He is a great resource on all things related to starters and alternators and has a very capable crew on staff, who has forgotten more about that stuff than most folks will ever know. John's team echoed our guys in respect to hardly anyone using real deep-cycle batteries in these applications, but also noted that solenoids are voltage sensitive. When they receive less than 11 volts, things start to go bad and he noted it's a huge problem with street rod guys, who hardly ever take their cars out and don't properly-maintain their batteries in between use. In marine applications, he regularly tells customers volt meters are their friends and they should be looking for at least 12.6 volts (our BlueTops with light-gray cases are fully-charged at ~13.0-13.2V). When his marine customers have issues, they find their issues are primarily traced back to three typical issues- eyelets too large, leading to poor connections, crimped eyelets leading to poor connections and cable that is too small. With wires running to and from starters, alternators and batteries, there are plenty of opportunities to have issues in multiple locations. If the battery can't make it to at least 12.6 volts or drops really low when starting, then there could also be an issue with the battery. John is also a big advocate for gear reduction starters, because they can provide more torque for high-compression engines and engines that are hard to start in general. I hope that answers your question. Jim McIlvaine eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries Learn more about Powermaster's stuff here- http://powermastermotorsports.com/

Hi Jim and thanks for the reply

I guess one maybe easy question is could someone walk into their local autp parts store
(like Pete walking into his favorite AutoZone for example) and buy what you guys refer to as a true deep cycle battery or is a true deep cycle what is sold for solar installations etc.

Is what's sold as a marine deep cycle a true deep cycle? It sounds like it's not.

Otherwise it sounds like whatever you have for a battery, if you actually show it a little love and take care of it you should have far less problems than with the battery that sits neglected until you decide it's time to start the boat after a winter hibernation?

And solenoid issues are gonna happen with whatever kind of battery you have if the battery is not in good shape?

My neighbor who has a Mastercraft has a bad cover and his starter got totally rusted but being a cheapskate (aren’t we all?), he just keeps using it even though it cranks slowly and takes a lot of juice to start.

Starters are pretty robust appliances.

Well that was a good thread. Especially loved the part where Pete is installing speakers on a tower for the Atom. 6 volt. Great visual. That's funny.
And my original diagnosis was correct. I feel good.

Where do you boat.? Lots of lakes near u!

Gary S wrote: Just get a new starter,clean your connections and go boating.

That’s all u gotta do

Ok, i'm a disgrace.   It's completely trashed.   The bilge must have been full of water this winter. I can't believe it even functioned. I had to put a breaker bar on to get the bottom bolt of, no fun.

Assuming this all happened over the winter and not last year or before I bought it. All the gears look fine. I'm sure it could technically be cleaned up and get new brushes, but the thing is pretty wicked. Easily to justify $150 in my book.

Moving onto the assumption the bilge was full of water, I can only assume the transmission and any other low hanging parts. Even the flywheel has a large coating of surface rust. No idea how serious of an issue that even is by itself?? Should I try and clean it?   What would your recommendation of where you'd go from here? I've already changed the engine oil and tranny oil.

BTW, the trickle charger on the battery finally showed flashing green, which means at least 80% charged. After 3 days.


Rusty flywheel. Should i be concerned?

I appreciate your patience guys and hopefully, I'll have some answers that will make sense. I've had this question come up before and our engineering group's consistent response starts with asking what kind of a battery someone believes is a deep-cycle battery, as the vast majority of batteries that would show up in automotive or marine applications (at least most boats that can be towed behind your vehicle) are not true “deep-cycle” batteries, like those found in stand-alone power systems. The "deep-cycle" batteries most folks use are like our YellowTops or BlueTops with light-gray cases, that are designed for starting vehicles, but can also handle being deeply-discharged with trolling motors or other electrical accessories.

The standard line is that as long as these batteries meet or exceed the OE requirements for cranking amps or marine cranking amps (CCA isn't really used much in marine), the battery will have no negative impact on the starter, alternator or anything else. The caveat to that is that the rated cranking amps on the label may not come out of the battery, if it isn't fully-charged, which is a very common issue in vehicles (and vessels) that only see occasional and/or seasonal use.

I wanted to cover off on this question from the other parts of the electrical triangle, as my friend, John, at Powermaster Performance likes to call it, so I called him with the same question. He is a great resource on all things related to starters and alternators and has a very capable crew on staff, who has forgotten more about that stuff than most folks will ever know. John's team echoed our guys in respect to hardly anyone using real deep-cycle batteries in these applications, but also noted that solenoids are voltage sensitive. When they receive less than 11 volts, things start to go bad and he noted it's a huge problem with street rod guys, who hardly ever take their cars out and don't properly-maintain their batteries in between use.

In marine applications, he regularly tells customers volt meters are their friends and they should be looking for at least 12.6 volts (our BlueTops with light-gray cases are fully-charged at ~13.0-13.2V). When his marine customers have issues, they find their issues are primarily traced back to three typical issues- eyelets too large, leading to poor connections, crimped eyelets leading to poor connections and cable that is too small. With wires running to and from starters, alternators and batteries, there are plenty of opportunities to have issues in multiple locations. If the battery can't make it to at least 12.6 volts or drops really low when starting, then there could also be an issue with the battery. John is also a big advocate for gear reduction starters, because they can provide more torque for high-compression engines and engines that are hard to start in general. I hope that answers your question.

Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries

Learn more about Powermaster's stuff here-
http://powermastermotorsports.com/

Well you guys cursed me, sure enough my D34M failed miserably last night - of course it is from 2012 and I was trying to revive it after leaving the pump on for a week and a half and discharging it down to basically nuthin (could still hear the pump humming when I got in the boat a week and a half later but it wasn't turning). I was able to get it back up to 14.4 volts after a few days on a smart charger at low amperage but turn the key and she just wouldn't give up the current.   

I really babied that battery too, just a small stereo played sparingly on a rarely used and well maintained boat

Except the part where all of that last statement is the opposite of reality. My boat generally is set up for Dual D34Ms but I smoked this ones mate 2 years ago when I direct shorted it with some 1/0 gauge cables, I didn't want to pair this one with a new one so it has been on its own for a couple years and still would give me a good hour of stereo usage before I would get nervous and start the engine for a bit.    If Optima Jim wants to give me a good discount on a couple replacements - I would be happy to slap a couple optima stickers on my tower speakers.

8122pbrainard wrote: "including me" well, you may want to look back at what I have said. It wasn't exactly what you have quoted. Trying to throw me under the bus again I see!!

I looked back, Pete's exact quote was:

"Only a complete moron, most likely from a climate that has more than 5 weeks of summer, would use a completely inappropriate deep cycle battery as a starting battery in a boat. It is well known that deep cycle batteries cause shaft misalignment."

8122pbrainard wrote: KENO wrote: "it will destroy your solenoid and/or starter so you'd better get a regular starting battery and ditch that deep cycle" Thanks Low voltage causing a higher amp draw causes start relays to fail/weld contacts together the same as using a weak battery. Ken, Who are you quoting? I'm finding that manufactureres of deeps recommend using a deep that has 20% more CCA than the equal starting. Many of us can't fit the next case size in their battery box.

A number of people over the years including you

I can see both sides of the argument and want to hear what their battery engineers have to say.

Hi Bob .....er I mean Jim excellent movie by the way

I'm not one of the ones who preaches about not using deep cycle batteries so whatever your engineers can tell us about using deep cycle batteries either the dual purpose or strictly deep cycle as a starting battery would be good. I'm just curious

The statement is always that "it will destroy your solenoid and/or starter so you'd better get a regular starting battery and ditch that deep cycle"

My question would be "is that true and why or why not?"

Thanks

OptimaJim, your input is very much appreciated. Please follow up on your post, its great that you cleared up some details about the Optima's but it leads to some follow up questions and would be helpful to hear your comments.

Shouse, I don't know if I am reading your last post correctly, but the 50amp IS your main boat fuse...NOT for "just" an amplifier. Connections to it, as well as at your battery, your grounds, starter, etc need to be clean as a whistle. From watching your video, there certainly isn't enough power going to your starter, and the starter is dragging, which is what I equate that little bit of "raspy" sound to be. I HIGHLY suggest a "Cranking" battery with at least 750CCA's. I have a 800 CCA battery in my Nautique, and it had been sitting in winter storage since late October until May 1st. I hooked up battery, put the hose on, and one quick turn of the key my engine fired right up and sat their purring like a kitten.   Make sure you have a good battery, clean connections on everything. and then try it

I bought the boat with a dirty engine bay, and it's on my long list of things to take care of. My bad.   However, I don't see the correlation between how an outside appearance of a part is of any indication of how the internals will or could look.   I did clean up the starter connections and replaced the two nuts yesterday.

Pete, sorry forgot to mention that. I took off all the battery connections and sanded, wire brushed an used some acid cleaner for places I couldn't get to. The inline fuse was severely corroded over (50a), but I'm thinking that's just for the amplifier that was added. I don't believe an inline fuse to the main engine line.   I inspected the crimp connections and believe they're fine. They're snug and looks like they were also soldered.

The sounds I"m hearing go past normal starter struggling. In my opinion, something is on it's way out. I'm just trying to figure out what that is so I can replace it. Sounds like the starter is the the most likely guilty cause?   Is it pretty easy to unbolt it and lift it right out of the engine bay? Looks like a pretty tight fit.

Thanks for the help everyone, really. I had a long day yesterday replacing all the bunks on my trailer (8 plus the nose and 2 fenders) and slightly irritable this morning, lol. Thanks again.

Peter,
A battery going dead after 3 weeks sure indicates there's something draining it and not the type or brand of the battery. Run a parasitic load test. There are plenty of you tube videos on the procedure if you've never done one.
You never answered:

8122pbrainard wrote: Peter, Did you clean your battery posts and the battery cable terminals with a wire type cleaner designed for the job?

Then regarding your ring terminal on the battery:

8122pbrainard wrote: . Take a good look at the ring lug and see if it was crimped to the cable properly with a crimping tool. Check for corrosion inside the crimp. Clean all the rings and the stud area of any corrosion and using some dielectric grease is always a good idea.