351w crankshaft help |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3591 |
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Posted: July-09-2019 at 12:39am |
There is not doubt coolant temp changes clearances. Glad it is not old gas this puts repairs back on the shop.
Ask what clearance he gave you on the valves both exhaust and intake and ask what your piston clearance is to the cylinder wall. Also need to know what type piston is in the engine, Forged or cast, aluminum or hypereutectic. It all makes a difference in a marine engine. Good Luck, I hope you get it running strong soon. |
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428CobraJet
Groupie Joined: August-19-2016 Location: Houston Status: Offline Points: 54 |
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new tank. pumps lines, carbs. all new. he said...he set both engines too tight because he didn't figure the 140 degree thermostat...
not buying. but fingers are crossed |
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You are what you drive.
1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3591 |
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Thanks for your update and very sorry for the bad news.
I witnessed the stuck valve issue after rebuilds many times over the years. The story is normally the same. " we took the engine to the machine shop got it fully rebuilt and then did not get a chance to start it for nearly a year" The engine is built correctly but the GASOLINE in your tank ages quickly. Old gasoline can turn to a varnish like product. It causes the valves to stick. If you put your nose near the carburetor you can smell a strong smell when this happens. In one case I went into a friends Machine shop, he was having a conversation with an Automotive Shop owner, 50 year old guy that had run a great shop for years. Without giving me any hint at all the Machine Shop owner asked me to walk with him and this Shop owner to the rear of his shop where the engine tear downs take place. When we got within 10 feet he looked at me and asked what happened to the engine on the bench. The smell is so distinct that I quickly told him "someone used old gas". Now the Auto Shop owner looks at me and says he has been arguing with the Machine shop owner about this for 30 minutes already. I took him to his block and showed him the varnished tops of his pistons and the sticky varnish building up on his valves. He apologized to the Machine Shop owner and said he could not believe he never saw that before. Once you smell it you don't forget it. Not a bad smell but a strong smell and the pistons come out almost Pretty. Looks like you varnished them on the piston head but when you touch it you find it sticky. The good news is normally a cleaning and set of gaskets gets it running again. Clean out the Fuel Tank and dump the old fuel. There are other things that can do this but based on the age of these posts I think you might be into old fuel. Sorry, I bet I witnessed similar old fuel issues 20 times. Stabil is sold to avoid this but if you read the fine print stabil only claims to work for 6 mos. Sea Foam advertises the same thing but Sea Foam claims to be able to keep gas good for 1 year. Any untreated fuel over 6 mos old is suspect Please let us know what you find. Mark |
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428CobraJet
Groupie Joined: August-19-2016 Location: Houston Status: Offline Points: 54 |
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ok...we swapped in a new crank. all is good. testeded boat up to 50mph/4000 (needs more prop I believe), and the port engine stuck a valve!
back to machine shop, redid valves on that engine (too tight in guides) and hope to never go back there!!!! now sorting cooling system. waterpump vibrates and off comes hose to engine. questioning mounting as the factory setup is a real 'Debbie Downer' because of the vdrives and deep v |
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You are what you drive.
1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3591 |
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You can rap on a crankshaft with a small hammer or piece of steel. If it rings like a bell you have no cracks. If it makes a thud sound it is cracked. Quick and easy test.
Obviously you don't hit it on any of the machined surfaces and you don't hit it hard, just a tap to make it ring. |
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428CobraJet
Groupie Joined: August-19-2016 Location: Houston Status: Offline Points: 54 |
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new development...just heard results of magnaflux of crank. 1-1.5 inch crack. I'm guessing caused by dropped valve of 1st engine...but dunno
sounds like the cause of whole mess. Best news I've had in a few weeks. |
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You are what you drive.
1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
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428CobraJet
Groupie Joined: August-19-2016 Location: Houston Status: Offline Points: 54 |
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The crank is at a place in Houston...Pete's Crank Grinding and Repair. Waiting for a decision from me.
But, yes, plan on turning and polishing directionally, demagnetizing, straightening... |
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You are what you drive.
1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3591 |
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Since the Crankshaft is aftermarket you might consider having it ground .010 undersize.
Any oddities would show up on the crank grinder. A crank polish will probably cost $40 while a grind and polish might be $100-$120. Money well spent to have peace of mind. This crank ate a set of main bearings o the surface is compromised right now and will at least need a polish so a grind/polish is not a big step up. AER in Dallas is well known and builds thousands of engines for GM, Ford, Chrysler, Nissan and Mazda. They know how to grind a crank with proper finish. For many years most of the GM rebuilds sold at the GM dealerships were built by AER. |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21109 |
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Sure seems obvious that there was insufficient clearance on the mains. Either the machining/bearing matching wasn’t done right (or verified, or both), or something is either bent or not straight. Tight when assembled = bad. If it were an oiling issue, I’d expect the rods to suffer first- not the mains.
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Duane in Indy
Platinum Member Joined: October-26-2015 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1578 |
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edit: I posted this before seeing the above post, yet I still stand by my post. Duane
There is NO way that .001 out on the crank scrapped this build. I doubt that the builder could duplicate his .001 error in the crank checking it the way that he did. Guys .001 is nearly nothing in a span of 24 inches. I still feel that there are two contributing factors that must be resolved before another build is performed. 1. Verify that the block is straight. I highly suspect there in lies the problem (needs align bored) At the very least it should have be deemed a good block to build on. 2. Have someone check this guys work or take it elsewhere. He obviously dropped the ball when he sent an engine out the door that was destined to fail. Tight rotating assemblies don't get better. They get hot and seize. This guy holds all the credentials to be a "back yard hack" (in the words of our Grand Wizard) Warranty or not I would not be comfortable with another job from that assembler. NO good builder will ship an engine that is "tight" on rotating. |
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Keep it as original as YOU want it
1978 Mustang (modified) |
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428CobraJet
Groupie Joined: August-19-2016 Location: Houston Status: Offline Points: 54 |
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I've got a ton of money in this boat. Many times what I anticipated originally (and probably 10x what I could liquidate it for!). I'm lucky, as a retired teacher, that I could do it. Its beautiful. The engines represent maybe 20k. The machine shop only a small portion of that. Its probably the best Nova24Vdrive out there.
I'm not looking for blame. I'm looking for the cause so that we can all rectify it. The machine shop owner couldn't find an obvious cause. I reached out to you guys because so many of your boats run the blue oval...in small block form. More than anyone else except, perhaps, Shamrocks. I also reached out to the CC Commander and Donzi Restoration fb sites because there are some ccw Fords in there. These guys are not Walmart. These are artisans. The machine shop came highly recommended by a car/motorcycle shop i deal with (who is extremely demanding). The Machine shop received boxes of parts from me (as opposed to tired but running motors). I knew nothing about them. We ended up sourcing different blocks, stroker kits, and 1 head. Marinization stuff/breakin were done 70 miles away by me and the restoration guys/friends. And this is custom work. He's a gentleman, well regarded in the machine shop end within the Houston area, and a pleasure to deal with. I am not holding his feet to the fire. I'm thankful he's easy to work with. I will deal with him again. It will cost me some money, but I'm confident I'll be treated fair. It's just teething issues. And, as we all know, owning a boat is a source of joy no matter the minor ups and downs. I sincerely appreciate all your comments and suggestions. You told me things I couldn't find elsewhere. And I'm not even a Correct Craft owner (I own a 1967 390 powered Century Arabian in addition to the BossaNova). :-) Craig ps...1st splash in April. Me on the right. David (brother of Restoration shop) on port side. https://youtu.be/w5fucqpyOys going under bridge in August testing oil pressure validity https://youtu.be/Smn_j-Pn4sQ |
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You are what you drive.
1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
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tryathlete
Platinum Member Joined: April-19-2013 Location: Lake Villa, IL Status: Offline Points: 1797 |
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Common man? The engine assembler has a responsibility for his work. If the dang thing won’t turn, it is clear to me he failed to do what he was hired to do. A common man has little to no knowledge as to what reasonable resistance to turning over the engine might be. I don’t think there’s shared blame. I think it’s poor workmanship X 10.
Get a jury of common men—they will help plaintiff prevail. |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3591 |
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The engine turned hard right from the machine shop certainly opens a warranty issue.
However if you noticed the engine was hard to turn and ran it anyways a court would share the blame to you. I believe they use the standard " what would the common man do". If it turned hard right from the beginning the issue is most likely not related to clean parts or debris in the oil galleries. That type damage happens after it fires up and the oil gets hot while running. The hot oil will lift the debris and flow it into your bearings. Failure will happen but would not cause a hard crank before start up. |
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baitkiller
Platinum Member Joined: October-11-2011 Location: SW Florida Status: Offline Points: 1693 |
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I guess I could have read it better. I'm sure they know better than I, Good luck and thanks for keeping everyone informed.
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Jesus was a bare-footer.............
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428CobraJet
Groupie Joined: August-19-2016 Location: Houston Status: Offline Points: 54 |
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the machine shop built the long blocks, with damper, intake, and oil pan.
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You are what you drive.
1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
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baitkiller
Platinum Member Joined: October-11-2011 Location: SW Florida Status: Offline Points: 1693 |
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Quick question. When the block came home from the machine shop did you guys pull all the oil plugs front and back to wash them out before building? I think Ford has them yes? The plugs that fill the ends of the oil passages in the block. I blast a few whole cans of brake clean thru those and the crank ever since I lost a new build to dirt 30 years ago. Never assume that because it was tanked that its actually clean. You would be surprised at the *************** that comes out a "wrapped and ready crank.".
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Jesus was a bare-footer.............
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10650 |
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At least you know where to start .
I think I'd be calling it a warranty job with the engine guy I figure that all will be good this time around |
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428CobraJet
Groupie Joined: August-19-2016 Location: Houston Status: Offline Points: 54 |
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yep
my hindsight is 20/20 |
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You are what you drive.
1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10650 |
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Not to be a Monday morning quarterback, but that quote above sure seems like it should have raised a red flag or two at the time |
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428CobraJet
Groupie Joined: August-19-2016 Location: Houston Status: Offline Points: 54 |
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👍👍👍 |
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You are what you drive.
1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Just to clarify Craig mine is not a stroker but a standard LH 302 automotive crank now running RH
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428CobraJet
Groupie Joined: August-19-2016 Location: Houston Status: Offline Points: 54 |
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ok...so engine idle oil pressure kept going down.. 4/38 vs cw engine 40/60.. Finally pulled at 5 or so hours. never over 3k. Of course, Duane says anything of 5 seconds is gravy!!!!!
machine shop says looks like crank surface is destroying bearings. Crank shop says main #2 out 1 thousandths. magnetic. several places say grind/polish directionally, including Clevite. 2 marine engine builders I was referred to commented about the directional polishing. One of them (and Mr. McD) said only debris would cause damage that quick. I visited with mechanic that set up the marine stuff and worked with running engine on stand and such (with me). This motor was difficult to turn over from the beginning. required special cables, and made us question batteries when on our jerry rigged test stand. Several folks are running auto stroker kits in their sbf ccw applications over several years. GaryS. TrBenj. one of the marine engine builders from the far North. Apparently non issue. AND...this was the third motor, as the 2nd grenaded on cam breakin. Machine shop thinks dropped valve. I think holed cylinder. He warranted. 25 minutes run time. So, in light of all this....slight bend in crank combined with wrong polishing direction caused issues imho. Grenadine of second motor may have caused bend in crank. get crank ckd and directionally polished and straightened. closely ck block, line bore as necessary. replace oil pump (and bearings and redress custom cam) that's what I plan to talk with machine shop over. btw, he assembled both (well, all 3) long blocks to oil pan and intake. Boat restorer, his mechanic brother, and I took it from there. They are both friends of mine. Although I rebuilt the 390 in my Ranchero, I was so overwhelmed with the dollars being spent on the restoration of the boat, I decided to get expert help on the engine assembly. Thank y'all so much! Craig |
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You are what you drive.
1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3591 |
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In Top Fuel, do you still adjust your tune by measuring how wide the Rod Bearings are after a run to see how much detonation you had in each cylinder or have modern electronics replaced this old test.
20 years ago the babbit rod bearings would spread and pound out making them wider if you had detonation issues. In the early 90's I was told one of the Top Fuel Team owners poured his entire concrete driveway over pistons, similar to creating exposed aggregate in concrete he had exposed piston heads. Said they cost so much he wanted to get some return out of the investment. I don't know how many were in the driveway but it was certainly in the hundreds. There is absolutely nothing on earth as intense as standing close to two top fuelers when they launch. Your entire body vibrates from the horsepower explosion. I can't imagine what it would feel like in that drivers seat. Mark |
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Jonny Quest
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8,000+ HP would be an amazing experience -- even if it was just 5 seconds... |
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2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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Duane in Indy
Platinum Member Joined: October-26-2015 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1578 |
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[QUOTE=428CobraJet] My ccw (reverse rotation) csst stroker 351w is eating its main bearings in 5 hours (less than 3000 rpm)./QUOTE]
For the last 10 years, and hundreds of engines, our engine life expectancy average was between 4 and 5 seconds. We buy pistons 100 at a time . I think you are doing great at 5 hours. (had to add a little humor to your issue) Good luck on the next build, hope your guy finds the source of the failure. Duane |
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Keep it as original as YOU want it
1978 Mustang (modified) |
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428CobraJet
Groupie Joined: August-19-2016 Location: Houston Status: Offline Points: 54 |
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let me visit machine shop first!
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You are what you drive.
1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10650 |
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I bet some people would like to hear the plan |
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428CobraJet
Groupie Joined: August-19-2016 Location: Houston Status: Offline Points: 54 |
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thanks again for all your input. And Mr.McD, thanks for putting so much into your response.
I think we've got a plan. I'll hopefully be posting happy news in a few months. Craig |
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You are what you drive.
1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
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428CobraJet
Groupie Joined: August-19-2016 Location: Houston Status: Offline Points: 54 |
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Thank you
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You are what you drive.
1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3591 |
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Work had me on the road this week and missed this thread.
I can share some engine bearing experience. Grinding and polishing are normally done in reverse rotations. By that I mean the grinding would be normally in reverse of rotation and the polishing favorable to rotation. When grinding the procedure leaves micro sized saw teeth on the surface of the crankshaft journals. These saw teeth look like teeth on a hack saw but only show under a microscope. When they polish normally this is done in reverse so the saw teeth get smoothed over and your surface is more friendly to the engine bearings. This is known as a favorable polish. Favorable to the direction of rotation of the crankshaft. This takes those saw teeth and faces them away from the direction of rotation and the polish smooths them even more so under load they are not breaking through the oil film and causing issues with your bearings. The bearings should never touch the crankshaft in normal operation the bearings and crank are separated by an oil film. Modern technology has most engines set up at .0015 to .002 engine bearing clearances. Old School had Main and rod clearance at .0025 to .003.. The modern clearances keep good oil pressure at idle. Old school oil pressure at idle would typically fall off 10-20 lbs. The loose bearings would leak that much oil dropping oil pressure unless you installed a high volume oil pump to mask the leaks. Tighter oil clearance has the side benefit of reduced oil on the cylinder walls which helps your rings control the amount of oil burned in combustion. Rings can only control a limited amount of oil so tighter rod clearances help build an engine that does not burn oil. As far as your failure it seems the diagnosis so far is all over the board. Engines are simple. If the crank is straight and ground properly, you have a good oil supply they work. When they don't work you look at the parts and the parts tell you where to look for the problems. The Main Bearings should have been numbered as they came out and laid out in a line. The crankshaft should have been laid next to the bearings and you study the bearings to see what can be learned. Don't look just at the face that touched the crankshaft turn the bearings over and look at the bearing backs. The backs should show no movement marks. They should look new. If a bearing moves in the block while running it is not properly sized to have proper crush. Any movement marks tell you the bearing was not crushed in place properly. The tangs on the bearings do not hold them in place, crush holds them in place. You can build an engine without the bearing tangs and have zero bearing issues. The tangs are only there to help the installer put them in the block properly. Once torqued the tangs do nothing, crush holds the bearings. When looking at the bearing faces, all your lowers on the bottom, all the uppers on top you will see if debris went through the engine, the bearings will show everything that went through. Large grooves, big debris, small grooves show small debris. Studying the uppers and lowers will show contact and wear by journal. You will see where your problem was. Go back wards from that to find out why that area had an issue. If it is an oiling issue the problem shows more far from the oil pump and less close to the oil pump. Now the bad news. If your engine has an oil cooler and oil cooler lines and this engine with this cooler had a previous engine failure that contaminated your oil supply with debris you need to trash the oil cooler and the oil cooler lines. In the engine business it has been proven over the years that a oil cooler and the cooler lines will trap small metal particles from an engine failure and if not replaced these metal particles will start circulating in the new engine as soon as your oil gets hot. This is true for all engines, Gas, Diesel and Performance. No business has yet figured out how to properly clean the lines and coolers to avoid this type repeat engine failure. From what you have said your bearings are down to the copper. This should not have happened for 200,000 miles of normal engine wear with clean oil supplied. You have a problem. This engine bearing failure material is now in your block and in all the oil passages. The oil gallery plugs should be pulled and all the galleries cleaned with warm soapy water, Dawn dish soap works very well in warm water. The warm soapy water works to break the magnetic effect in the block holding your debris in the oil galleries. Your engine, pistons, crankshaft, should all have been thoroughly washed with warm soapy water then dried, blown out with air and wiped down with oil to keep rust away prior to assembly. I have seen many engine bearing failures because the customer paid for a crankshaft grind and installed that re ground crankshaft without washing it. Even in the crankshaft there are oil passages that have to be washed with clean warm soapy water. You can wash out the oil galleries using a rifle brush with the soapy water, this works in the crank galleries and in the engine block galleries and is mandatory prior to assembly. Crank grinders are busy machining crankshafts to make money, cleaning for assembly is up to you. If you don't do this on initial start up the metal material from the grinding process will flow into your main bearings on initial start up, as soon as the oil gets hot the metal starts flowing . The bearings will try to save you by letting the metal embed in the bearing material, this works for small amounts of debris but a large amount will cause bearing failure. For Engine Bearings today there are now Silicone Enhanced Aluminum engine bearings. Federal-Mogul sold these as A500 material and that I believe is now upgraded to A600 material. I mention these new bearings because with the silicon enhancement the aluminum can now polish the surface of your crankshaft while you run the engine. With the new material a crankshaft can go in your engine with an RA of 25 and come out after 100,000 miles and measure perfect with an RA of 10-15. These bearings are magic for this. No copper bearing could offer anything like this. The A series bearings are bored so the surface is like super fine threads or the surface of the old fashioned record. These grooves hold oil and help it flow, they also help move any debris out of the bearing surface so the particles will make their way to your oil filter hopefully and not imbed in your bearings where they cause damage later. If you engine is less than 500 HP I would certainly run this technology. Ford started installing this A series bearing in all there vehicles in the early 2000's. I know machine shops that received engines in for rebuild at 150,000 miles with these bearings in them and the shop owners could not believe how perfect the crankshaft finish was. If you are bored take time and read about these bearings, they are almost the same cost as copper but offer a lot more for your buck. The technology has not proven to be tough enough for Diesels or very high horsepower cars yet but anything under 500 HP these are a no brainer. Study your used bearings, learn what you can, clean all your parts. Assemble the crankshaft in the block with all the bearings oiled. Before torqueing the caps rotate the crankshaft, it should spin freely. Start in the middle main bearing and torque to 25 lbs or so. Then work your way to both ends doing the same, alternating left side then right side. You are trying to bring the crankshaft and bearings into place evenly with no adverse torque on the assembly. At 25 lbs torque on all caps spin the crank, it should be smooth. If not take a brass hammer and rap all the caps down and try to spin the crank again. If it had a little drag before this normally fixes a normal alignment issue. Now torque to 50 lbs on all caps, start at the middle and work out again. Rotate again after the 50 lb torque it should be just a smooth rotating. If it is tight rap the bearing caps again with the brass hammer and spin it again. Normally this is enough to make it spin smoothly. Maybe 1 in 10 engines need this tap to help the caps seat. Bring the mains to full torque now, again, middle first work your way out. Torque it like a head gasket. Bring the caps down nice and even and straight so you don't create any alignment issues. If you have a line bore issue or a crankshaft that is not straight it will show up when you torque the bearing caps. A line bore issue will squeeze the crank and it will be tough to rotate all 360 degrees. A bent crank will have tight and loose spots in the 360 degree rotation. There is a lot more but this is the basics to start. |
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