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Wrecked My Ankle - Foot Did Not release -

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91NaughtyQ View Drop Down
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    Posted: August-26-2019 at 8:36am
So it finally happened to me. Thursday eve coming off of 1 ball on the very first pass I took a spill (it was a weird one) and my front foot did not come all the way out of my binding. Ankles are not supposed to twist like that for sure.

WIth this in mind do any of you have experience with the Reflex or Edge type of "release" bindings?   Pro's, Con's, drawbacks etc.... Let's go ahead and rule out price as a con because lets face it, if you are on this forum you know all to well about the cost of our toys.

Just for background - I have always used DBL High Wraps - Looking at possibly going to Hardshell front and rear toe.

Hoping for some not terrible news from the Ortho Dr. this morning.

Any feedback is appreciated.

Gary
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DVskier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-26-2019 at 9:06am
A lot of my friends use the Reflex front with an rep. Some use the Reflex half boot rear also. I use a Radar Profile front with HRTP rear. As long as you don’t crank the top laces too tight it’s always released for me and I’ve taken some spectacular crashes trying to get” one more ball”. You might want to look at getting a MOB release plate as it will definitely keep you injury free.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Orlando76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-26-2019 at 9:57am
http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=46948&title=orlando-76-man-down

Did you miss the above thread? Sorry to hear the bad luck. Been there, done that, probably will do it again. I used to ski double Wiley’s, front didn’t realease. I now ski with an HO Syndicate Hardshell with release. Still hadn’t fully made up my mind about the rear but at the moment I’m on an old Radar Vector that’s too deliberately too big and I don’t cinch it down. I wasn’t happy with the Reflex R style. Absolutely LOVE the Hardshell and wish I did the switch years ago, despite my $350k+ leg. I was reluctant to try a release and Hardshell but obviously will never go back.

Do your best to keep from going insane. It does get better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tryathlete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-26-2019 at 11:17am
As a novice and old skier, I don’t want to go through what you guys are dealing with, especially at my advancing age. I have a neighbor who we refer to as Red Ted who is one of those older guys that can seriously tear it up. He skies behind my boat, 32 off and pulls like a wild bronco. He’s 63 years old. He uses a conventional boot and laces it tight, but he uses a plastic bag to aid in release and I’m wondering if anyone here has ever thought of that. It sure seems like a great way to provide a bail-out provision for when things go awry and the world starts to spin out of control.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonny Quest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-26-2019 at 12:19pm
91:

I feel for you, Bro. Sorry about the incident. Many of us have been there and done that (in some form or another).

I've been using Wiley double-high wraps for many years. Prior to that, I was riding the H.O. Animal bindings. I had a couple of close calls on some nasty out-the-front falls where the rear foot came out, but the front didn't. I escaped significant injury, but I was concerned. I gave the folks at Wiley's a call. The guy I spoke with recommended that I buy the next size up in the double high-wraps. I was doubtful at first. They dude even said that he would take the used bindings back if I wasn't happy with the results. Well, I didn't need to send the next-size-up bindings back as I really love the way they work. First, I don't have to struggle to get my feet in the bindings. I used to need half a bottle of Duck Butter or Bindings Slime to get my feet in the bindings. Now I just put a little lube inside the binding and a little on each foot. No tugging and pulling and ripping out finger holes any more. Easy on, easy off.

My feet feel very secure in the bindings and I've not had any pre-release issues where the bindings should have held...but didn't. Now, the ski comes off in a hard fall and stays on for most falls.

I've considered some other bindings, but I keep with the Wiley's. I would love to demo some Syndicate hard-shell bindings, but I need to find someone willing to do a demo.

Hope you hair-up and heal-over quickly.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-26-2019 at 12:22pm
I met a fellow last year while purchasing a trailer hitch he had for sell.
He had just set the record for water skiing in his 72 year old age group.
I want to say it was at 35 off?   I should remember his name and accomplishments as he was a neat guy.
He showed me his ski and binding set up, he went to it after blowing out his ankle and then a knee.   His set up was a plate under both boots.   In a crash the entire plate comes off the ski and both feet and boots remain in the plate.
He said he has never been hurt in the new device.   He modified his so he could adjust his feet forward or aft till it best met his needs.   Sorry I don't have a brand name but there is an answer out there.
I have chosen to ski old school, Low wrap front boot, open heel. Easy slip on easy exit in crashes, at least so far in 40+ years on slolom. I never went deeper than 6 balls at 32 off, 36 mph.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Orlando76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-26-2019 at 12:49pm
Originally posted by Jonny Quest Jonny Quest wrote:


I've considered some other bindings, but I keep with the Wiley's. I would love to demo some Syndicate hard-shell bindings, but I need to find someone willing to do a demo.

JQ


JQ, supposedly HO will demo their Hardshell. That’s what their website leads you to believe. But just like EVERY interaction I’ve ever had with HO, you get ZERO response until you start complaining and bashing on Ball of Spray.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 91NaughtyQ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-26-2019 at 2:41pm
Originally posted by Orlando76 Orlando76 wrote:

http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=46948&title=orlando-76-man-down

Did you miss the above thread? Sorry to hear the bad luck. Been there, done that, probably will do it again. I used to ski double Wiley’s, front didn’t realease. I now ski with an HO Syndicate Hardshell with release. Still hadn’t fully made up my mind about the rear but at the moment I’m on an old Radar Vector that’s too deliberately too big and I don’t cinch it down. I wasn’t happy with the Reflex R style. Absolutely LOVE the Hardshell and wish I did the switch years ago, despite my $350k+ leg. I was reluctant to try a release and Hardshell but obviously will never go back.

Do your best to keep from going insane. It does get better.


No I didn't miss it, rather chose not to see carnage in my sport. I just think it is bad juju looking at that stuff. I haven't even looked at my footage of the crash. Thanks for the info on hardshells.

Gary
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 91NaughtyQ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-26-2019 at 2:43pm
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

I met a fellow last year while purchasing a trailer hitch he had for sell.
He had just set the record for water skiing in his 72 year old age group.
I want to say it was at 35 off?   I should remember his name and accomplishments as he was a neat guy.
He showed me his ski and binding set up, he went to it after blowing out his ankle and then a knee.   His set up was a plate under both boots.   In a crash the entire plate comes off the ski and both feet and boots remain in the plate.
He said he has never been hurt in the new device.   He modified his so he could adjust his feet forward or aft till it best met his needs.   Sorry I don't have a brand name but there is an answer out there.
I have chosen to ski old school, Low wrap front boot, open heel. Easy slip on easy exit in crashes, at least so far in 40+ years on slolom. I never went deeper than 6 balls at 32 off, 36 mph.


Those sound like the GOODE binding system
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 91NaughtyQ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-26-2019 at 2:49pm
Well boys bad news from the Doc. I have surgery next Wednesday and get to sport a screw or two. The injury is actually to my foot. The common name is Lisfranc - It is where the joint in the foot the runs up the foot in line between the big toe and 2nd toe becomes compromised. Turns out you can't walk if this thing isn't correct, so I get some screws to pull it back together. I am already going nuts not skiing. I talked to a pro from NC who uses them (REFLEX) and highly recommends them. He states (and I tend to agree) No binding system is 100% safe, but these give you the best chance of survival in those nasty crashes. The good news for my skiing partner is he now has a full time driver.....

Cheers

Gary
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Air206 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-26-2019 at 5:28pm
My wife's injury in May - her foot stayed in high wrap front binding.


Click For Full-Size Image.

A little surgery later.....


Click For Full-Size Image.

She's wearing both shoes again now and looking forward to bindings which release.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Air206 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-26-2019 at 5:30pm
Lisfranc can be tough repairs. Follow aftercare instructions ...TO THE LETTER. All the Best for your repair.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bkhallpass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-26-2019 at 6:48pm
My daughter used Reflex on her trick ski and will move to a reflex next year when she gets a new Slalom. Turns out the Reflex are more comfortable (for most people) than are rubber bindings, and have an added measure of safety. BKH
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-26-2019 at 7:46pm
Very sorry to hear the news of these injuries. Takes the fun out of an entire summer.
I hope you heal well and very quickly.

Time to do some one foot barefooting with your cast in a sleeve proudly held high!

I never embraced the high wrap lock in bindings,   Most times I can get my ski on and make a run before some of those bindings can be on and ready.

I was also noticing the marks on the rear of my boat from friends putting on their high wraps on my rear deck last weekend. About every 30 seconds you hear the ski bump the hull while they put on those bindings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 91NaughtyQ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-27-2019 at 8:15am
Originally posted by Air206 Air206 wrote:

Lisfranc can be tough repairs. Follow aftercare instructions ...TO THE LETTER. All the Best for your repair.


100% for sure.

thanks

Gary
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Orlando76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-27-2019 at 10:01am
Have any y’all gone to your boat insurance company for help with ski injuries? How’d that end up? Since I’m back to skiing recently and enlight of this post I just called Progressive and had my bodilily injuries increased to the max.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote desertskier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-27-2019 at 11:56am
A friend snapped his femur in half behind my boat. BoatUS covered his 5K deductible without admitting any liability. At the time I only had 1K in medical but they covered it anyway. After that I upped it to the max which was 10K at the time. My main concern these days is helicopter evac costs. I have heard some horror stories from people that have had injuries and been flown to the hospital from the lake we go to. At the time my friend broke his femur (early 2000's) the helicopter ride was 13K and his insurance covered it. Now I hear the ride is in the 50k to 100k range and most insurance companies don't cover it.
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In California there is a Medical Helicopter service by the name of CalStar, you can sign up with them, minimal cost per year, $100, it covers you should you need a Helicopter evac.

I buy it for Snow Skiing.   I think the current charge per flight is $25,000 if you don't have insurance.   I've worked weekends in Lake Tahoe as a Ski Patroller the past 20 years.

You might check your areas and see what is available and what reciprocal agreements they offer in case you are out of your area.
One of my friends was signed up for Calstar, his son fell skateboarding and had a severe head injury.   They flew him to a level 1 Hospital and Calstar covered it. He fully recovered as a bonus.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-27-2019 at 3:11pm
For your reading pleasure
Lisfranc - http://www.southfloridasportsmedicine.com/lisfrancs.html



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote desertskier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-27-2019 at 3:16pm
Thanks for the info. Looks like Calstar is part of the AirMedCare network which is nationwide. Just signed up. Only $65 a year for someone of my advanced age and they cover my wife and son as well. Hopefully never need it!

AirMedCare

Looks like Arizona rates are about $20k to put the bird in the air and $290 per mile. That's right around $60k from our lake to Phoenix. Ouch!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-27-2019 at 3:21pm
Might be the cheapest $65 ever spent and great peace of mind when in the outback.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-27-2019 at 3:35pm
That lift cost seems to be inflated and we only charge for loaded miles in other words only the miles with the patient on board. Most quality medical insurance providers will pay for the flight.
Around these parts the subscriber type company's have a pretty bad reputation.
Just saying
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-27-2019 at 3:49pm
We have used Calstar a couple times per month each winter and they have been outstanding. As they fly in they communicate with us on the ground for information and giving advice.   When the clouds drop in they are grounded.
They are also good about giving updates after the fact but Tahoe is a small community, and the ski community is pretty tight compared to large cities.
They also donate time to fly in and train with us nearly every year to make sure we know how to safely approach a helicopter when it comes in on the snow.   Frostbite can happen in seconds on unprotected skin when it is 5 degrees and the chopper has a 100 MPH wind from the rotor. My experience, they are very serious and offer top notch help.
Distances would be flight of the crow, 70 miles to Sacramento UCD Med Center, 40 miles to Reno, or 10 miles to Lake Tahoe. Level of care available goes up with the distance involved.
My son flew the Apache for the army up until last year, he thinks they are good.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Orlando76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-27-2019 at 4:07pm
Originally posted by gun-driver gun-driver wrote:

That lift cost seems to be inflated and we only charge for loaded miles in other words only the miles with the patient on board. Most quality medical insurance providers will pay for the flight.
Around these parts the subscriber type company's have a pretty bad reputation.
Just saying

Paul,
Define bad reputation. In terms of saving $60k..... I don’t mind them dropping the stretcher 2 or 3 times.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-27-2019 at 4:13pm
All those item's you listed are pretty much SOP among the industry, the LZ training medical follow ups, and all .
Our program is an IFR program (we fly in the clouds) and we own GPS approaches into most of the hospitals that we service, which most if any of the subscription companies do not as they're a fly for profit and not affiliated with a health system.
If the patient needs a helicopter I hope their going to a level 1 trauma center, if not they should be in ALS or BLS ambulance saving tons of money.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-27-2019 at 4:19pm
Todd wasn't there just a big ta do down in Florida on a fly for profit company over charging or something like that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DVskier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-27-2019 at 4:33pm
I had a traumatic brain injury last December working at Keystone, it was a very icy day -15 degrees with winds of 20-25 mph. Was taken to the clinic where I was diagnosed with 3 brain bleeds. Next I got a Flight for Life helicopter ride to a level one trauma center, Lakewood Hospital. Workers comp covered all expenses but the helicopter ride was $28,500. I’ve been on several helicopter rides but Ed the pilot was the best. He had over 18,000 hours and was an Army veteran. In no time we were at the hospital where I received excellent care. It really doesn’t matter what the cost is for transport when your brain is traumatized.
As part of my job for the resort I clear landing zones for Flight for Life. I have a newfound respect for all involved in air transport.

Happy to be slalom skiing again this summer although I did take this year off from competing as I’ve still got a ways to go before I’m ready. Will definitely be back in CO working this winter and competing in slalom next summer. I’m only 73, move it or lose it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-27-2019 at 6:01pm
Wow, glad you survived to play again. Sounds like a very close call.
Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Orlando76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-27-2019 at 6:24pm
Originally posted by gun-driver gun-driver wrote:

Todd wasn't there just a big ta do down in Florida on a fly for profit company over charging or something like that.

Oh I don’t know. I have strict rule in our house, no sports on tv and no news.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M3Fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-27-2019 at 8:12pm
I don't think there's any "safe" binding out there. This is a generally dangerous sport, flying back and forth behind a boat at speeds in excess of 50mph on a stick of carbon, compounded by water itself which adds drowning and/or infections to the mix.

I'd argue that no hardshell is safer than a rubber boot. The hardshells today are actually rollerblade boots held in place by a hoop on the front and an alpine telemark binding release on the back. Literally none of it doing what it was designed to do. It's amazing that we trust this so much. Screws, release arms, tension, and springs need to be inspected regularly and nothing scares me more than the thought of a pre-release. A rubber binding is not going to pre-release in the course but it's a few flaps of rubber screwed to a plate which is also a ridiculous design. I'll take that over pre-release I guess. A lot of folks run the HS boots directly on a plate which is attached to the ski with... Interloc velcro. Again, that's a lot of faith in some velcro but lots of serious skiers put up really big scores with these setups.

Acclimation is also an issue with HS bindings. Having skied rubber bindings all this time I've found hardshell bindings to be an incredibly big change so prepare for that mentally. Probably a 20-set period to get used to it. I gave up after a few sets on the HS (season is too short) and now I'm just rocking a Wiley and a rear toe plate. Works great.
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