Chucky’s 1966 Mustang rebuild

Well, I did get a response this morning and no progress has been made.   
Therer are no seals available for the Reverse Rotation 302 but they were nice enough to point us to the available 351W full round that is available but they do not know the quality of that product. They were kind enough to point out the purpose of the ribs, that agrees with what Ken had read so the ribs even on the outside do help control oil leaks.

"The reverse rotation seal we used to offer, 17748, was a split seal 2 piece design. I could not find anything in a one-piece design that was reverse rotation ever offered by Fel-Pro and we do not offer the 17748 2 piece seal anymore.

I would not suggest trying to sand off the ribs on the seal. The lip of the seal will allow a little oil to get past it and it is the job of the ribs to direct that oil back into the engine. By removing the ribs, there would be nothing there to direct the oil back into the engine. The ribs work on the Archimedes pump principle.

Teflon Seals are deffinately directional.

I took a peek on Ebay to see if there was any NOS floating around and there was none.

I then Googled Ford marine 351 RMB seal and found www.alexsparts.com which offers a one piece reverse rotation RMB seal. I’m sorry to say we don’t offer anything that would help you & your friends out. I hate to send you to someone else for a part, especially since I don’t know the quality but we don’t have a part to offer you."

Gary S wrote: Good deal Mark it will be interesting what they say. Just to confirm it seems that reverse 351 seal are available,it's the 302's that are NLA

Like Gary said it's the 302's that have the lack of availability.

351 one piece RR seals are out there

The one in the link has been used by quite a few people

link

Mark,
Great and I hope you get some good info over guessing with using finger pressure.

I have received 2 notes back from the Head Engineer at Fel-Pro and he sent a request to his man that is in charge of seals, that guy may end up going to the people at National that make the seals.   This week is Thanksgiving week and typically many of those guys take the week off so I don't know when I may get an answer, but I did ask.
I thought it was very nice of the head guy to answer on a Sunday but we did work together for 20+ years.   For now, I will wait and see what can be learned.
I asked exactly what the lines on teh outside of the seal do and if they would affect sealing a Reverse Rotation engine, I asked them to verify Teflon as it relates to reverse rotation and I gave them the facts that many of these 351W engines are set up for Reverse Rotation and currently there are no seals available and asked for a recomendation.
From past experience I can share that they normally will not tool up for a new part unless you have an order for 5,000 or so or agree to pay for all tooling costs.   That is not going to happen.   I doubt there are 5,000 Reverse Rotation rull round seal engines out there running or at least not that many that will be wanting a new seal soon.
Since the head guy requested the information I suspect we will get an answer soon.

MrMcD wrote: In the last photo shown above the Seal is crushed down on the white plastic, release some pressure and the actual shape of the seal will come back. Properly installed the V Shape with the spring still clearly shows as a V shape. Picture below shows a similar seal with a dirt excluder on the outside lip but the V shape with a Spring, shown a a circle riding on the V shape is how a seal rides on the crankshaft.

You might be surprised how little pressure was being applied to the seal

Having another complete uncut seal right there to slip on the plastic piece, I used just enough pressure to approximate the fit of that seal when I took the picture of the cut seal.

In the picture there's still a gap that can be seen in the area between where the helix lines end and the outboard seal. (the area that would be filled with grease when installing the seal} I could have squeezed that right down to nothing pretty easily...........but I didn't.

Maybe you just have to have the seals in your hand to understand.

I guess you'll just have to check with the National Seals engineering dept to get those helix questions in the first 2 pictures answered. I'm reasonably sure they're much more qualified to answer the helix questions than the guy I got the info from

Time to let Chucky decide what he's gonna do.

The smooth seal will be showing up in his mailbox this week and he can do whatever he wants with it.

If I knew you were gonna comment I would have painted the plastic piece RED

Here comes the winky just for you

KENO wrote: MrMcD wrote:    Could make a call to engineering to ask. I think you should make a call to engineering to ask Here are pictures of both seals in question First seal is a National Seal sold by FelPro First picture is a closeup of a LH rotation one piece seal's helix lines outboard of the spring loaded v contact seal and inboard of what some would call the dirt seal or others might call it the outboard seal. I've been told that the helix lines lay flat on the shaft when the seal is installed and the lines direct leakage past the seal inwards to give some lubrication to the lip where it contacts the shaft otherwise dry rubber on a dry shaft would leak before long. Second one courtesy of David G a while back shows the 2 piece rubber seal riding directly over the helix lines and I was given the same explanation of lubrication for the seal whether it's rubber or rope So there must be somebody you can call in Federal Mogul's engineering dept to get their explanation It made sense to me years ago after lots of thought and still does but that don't mean it's right either

Chucky

I figured I'd add on to this post so all the pictures are in the same spot.

Here's a few minutes worth of todays fun

It's a picture of a cutaway FelPro seal over a piece of white plastic that's the same diameter as a 302 output flange where the seal sits.

The inner V lip, the helix area and the outer dirt seal are all in contact with the shaft when the seal is installed. I figure the V lip has the most pressure against the shaft with the help of the spring, but the helix area sure is touching.

Anybody can draw whatever conclusions they want from this picture.

One of my conclusions is that I can have fun in some strange ways Another is that
it wasn't too smart of me to cut up a brand new seal just to see how it works.......or was it?   

The Velvet drives are pretty tough and really need to be abused or overheated before a rebuild is needed. My 64 still runs great and in the close to 50 years I've had it has only had one fluid change. That was when I first got it and went to the ATF over the 30 that was in it. The fluid still looks nice and pink and without any burnt smell. Since you mentioned your fluid is still pink, I'd be inclined to give it just a paint job and go for it.

Chucky wrote: The trans question was, if I send it out for rebuild, has anyone had a good or bad experience with any particular shop? I have found someone local, but I’m doing a bit more research / might attempt it myself.

Doing it yourself is a good choice sine it sounds like you are very capable. Are you just doing it for a refresh or do you know if there were problems with it?

Chucky wrote: nobody said a word when I asked about my transmission.

Would that be "what's this switch on the side of my transmission" or "where can I find some mount pieces?"

I seem to remember some answers, not nearly as many as this though   

And don't forget, with a little CCF help, your dogs learned to post photos too

MrMcD wrote:    Could make a call to engineering to ask.

I think you should make a call to engineering to ask

Here are pictures of both seals in question

First seal is a National Seal sold by FelPro

First picture is a closeup of a LH rotation one piece seal's helix lines outboard of the spring loaded v contact seal and inboard of what some would call the dirt seal or others might call it the outboard seal.

I've been told that the helix lines lay flat on the shaft when the seal is installed and the lines direct leakage past the seal inwards to give some lubrication to the lip where it contacts the shaft otherwise dry rubber on a dry shaft would leak before long.



Second one courtesy of David G a while back shows the 2 piece rubber seal riding directly over the helix lines and I was given the same explanation of lubrication for the seal whether it's rubber or rope



So there must be somebody you can call in Federal Mogul's engineering dept to get their explanation

It made sense to me years ago after lots of thought and still does but that don't mean it's right either

"Inquisitive minds might wonder why the helix lines on the V seal are outboard of the V on the air side of the seal and not on the oil side.

Or why a 2 piece seal has the lip riding right in the middle of the helix lines on the crank?"

Good point to ponder on the wick lines on the Air side of the seal. Never thought about the exact purpose or that location till you pointed it out. I can guess that it somehow is used to stiffen the material against the rotational force to help seal over the lifetime.
Before today I assumed it was to help wick oil away but that is silly as there is no oil on the outside.   Could make a call to engineering to ask.
Many seals have a second lip seal on the air side, that is a dirt excluder lip trying to protect the seal itself. Seen on many wheel seal applications.

The second question is more straight forward. The Helix on the crank is very specific in purpose. It is used to pump oil back into the engine away from the sealing surface.
The old Rope seals which in the old days, prior to about 1984 were all Asbestos rope.
That was banned, and for many years many other products have been tried, most agree none of the new materials work or last as well as the old asbestos rope.
Anyhow the Rope seals put pressure on a very wide area hoping to seal the oil inside the engine. Similar to our rope seal on the driveshaft in our boats. With a Helix on the crank the design reduces the amount of oil on the seal by directing oil back into the pan so less is there to leak. The thinking was that a Helix allows the seal to function better but most cranks did not use a Helix so no idea how much it actually helps. We do know if you run a helix in reverse rotation it does make the seal leak. The good thing about the rope seals and the teflon design is the wide contact area does not leave a groove on your crankshaft which helps at rebuild time.
Absolute fact, rope seals did not perform as reliably as the newer Point Contact Seals so they were replaced or superceded.
Go back in time and look at the Driveways and parking lots. There used to be a lot more oil leaking onto the ground than you find with modern seals.
For every guy that says I had a 1968 Chevy and it never leaked a drop, you will find 10 guys that remember the oil mess in the center of every parking spot everywhere you tried to park. At our high school in 1975 it was habbit to never walk through the center of a parking space because you knew you would get oil on your shoes.   Today it is becoming rare to find oil spots under cars. A lot of the credit for the change goes back to the EPA, they forced the manufacturers to clean up their act on oil leaks.

P

I think you nailed it Pete.
Modern seal technology outside of the teflon we discussed depends on the pressure on that point to make the seal. That is why the seal is sharp and has the spring adding continuous pressure on that point.
In the old days Leather seals were used but for the most part those sealed grease.
Grease is much easier to seal than oil, pressurized hot oil is hard to seal up so leather grease seals were obsoleted for the most part.
The only downside to the V seal is limited life. Eventually after very high miles the seal will dig a groove in the shaft. Eventually that groove will get deep enough and the seal will start leaking.   They sell Speedi Sleeves to allow you to have a new shaft surface for a new seal install.
For those of us with a few years under our belt think back to what parking spaces and driveways looked like in the 50's and 60's compared to what we see today.
Most cars do not leak oil any longer but they sure did back then.

I run a set of these finned aluminum valve covers from ebay. They're surprisingly nice, given the price. You may need longer bolts as they are thicker than your stamped steel covers.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SBF-Ford-289-302-351W-Finned-Aluminum-Valve-Covers-With-Holes-Fits-Mustang/143413259309?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item216418ac2d:g:Rn8AAOxygo9Q8YeQ&enc=AQAEAAACQBPxNw%2BVj6nta7CKEs3N0qWSL01n9WQE9cInkSOyB6Z9bRWe7LrEAy%2FkWgMTC2J9Efaz%2FA3tnlgIm4ULFOyKT%2FtPPcmXaF9LDJW9vETEm0g0lqUG8X1e1gmsljWppRuQsQUMsU5uYXzWiIcaFYYCIyx8vQh2Kf8BmHzuHM70RtuVNO8BPEWShnI3kcfX4YKOCtjc0hrIbIBqaDhV4M6jCjPF0YvZh8Nlj5N3qmHemUzTe%2Fa9ZFiuxgGbuWynr0mS%2BRLB%2FXpylldVBbjI4hjWOm0Fs7ZmPSG0YHlsN%2BRN0XOt9JrljEd%2F94gwfKWfhlelmYm7dSceL4BWNUNJ38dSrmKul784M2x4jHn5eDXxIpCaiibd2Vs3m7PEj%2B11b2udsYhcjKAXJIbyRYdxexe%2BcxJKvgYFc%2BGCqXYMJLfjdGCcz6L%2FsUtTcmyfrWryMFE9Dzc%2FgaWB2wDXPex5727TYHC5DabdY12jBgrqGXT%2BJfmuYSBlwIzR3rBnWZ0TWKJlAdNNAu0HV4z73mGLhKeLAVddLVW03apBooWr2qZTnOVlz%2FlfY%2B%2F7dKh4XujKhjw6DVTU35SXVnmiF1h2ltNyfqEHzbX%2B7Ms26l4ct6hIJz1DXqxU%2FDcBfrV0NZrLehpD9%2FtYmCY5073dI4S10urvvcZVdNDiJdI6hFvZKlwaIVlNVxG4aAO7D2%2BxZJn44aKcEluFy%2Fx8ovsqmfhZCKE2F%2F%2F0Bx8EGVRFhrnmc7vYwJBZjC2CNTBEUK76mmPVQwZ16Q%3D%3D&checksum=1434132593099fd2022ae5ed45ad8dde588dc53b5566&enc=AQAEAAACQBPxNw%2BVj6nta7CKEs3N0qWSL01n9WQE9cInkSOyB6Z9bRWe7LrEAy%2FkWgMTC2J9Efaz%2FA3tnlgIm4ULFOyKT%2FtPPcmXaF9LDJW9vETEm0g0lqUG8X1e1gmsljWppRuQsQUMsU5uYXzWiIcaFYYCIyx8vQh2Kf8BmHzuHM70RtuVNO8BPEWShnI3kcfX4YKOCtjc0hrIbIBqaDhV4M6jCjPF0YvZh8Nlj5N3qmHemUzTe%2Fa9ZFiuxgGbuWynr0mS%2BRLB%2FXpylldVBbjI4hjWOm0Fs7ZmPSG0YHlsN%2BRN0XOt9JrljEd%2F94gwfKWfhlelmYm7dSceL4BWNUNJ38dSrmKul784M2x4jHn5eDXxIpCaiibd2Vs3m7PEj%2B11b2udsYhcjKAXJIbyRYdxexe%2BcxJKvgYFc%2BGCqXYMJLfjdGCcz6L%2FsUtTcmyfrWryMFE9Dzc%2FgaWB2wDXPex5727TYHC5DabdY12jBgrqGXT%2BJfmuYSBlwIzR3rBnWZ0TWKJlAdNNAu0HV4z73mGLhKeLAVddLVW03apBooWr2qZTnOVlz%2FlfY%2B%2F7dKh4XujKhjw6DVTU35SXVnmiF1h2ltNyfqEHzbX%2B7Ms26l4ct6hIJz1DXqxU%2FDcBfrV0NZrLehpD9%2FtYmCY5073dI4S10urvvcZVdNDiJdI6hFvZKlwaIVlNVxG4aAO7D2%2BxZJn44aKcEluFy%2Fx8ovsqmfhZCKE2F%2F%2F0Bx8EGVRFhrnmc7vYwJBZjC2CNTBEUK76mmPVQwZ16Q%3D%3D&checksum=1434132593099fd2022ae5ed45ad8dde588dc53b5566