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I GIVE UP, calling in the big expensive guns.

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    Posted: April-15-2020 at 10:39pm
I give up. I beg for help, I'm calling a tech tomorrow to schedule a time to come to my house. I feel defeated after so many parts orders, time sweating, crushing kids hopes, bloody knuckles......you know.

I purchased a 2002 Pro Air Nautique with "A blown engine". Come to find out it was the starter seized and had the engine locked in place.

Now I can't get it to run.....at all. I get a backfire, that's it.

Things I've done:
Oil change (Engine and Transmission)
torque plate and seals
Replaced the plugs/wires/cap/rotor, yes, I checked the routing and rotation. All in place
Replaced the low pressure pump, wasn't running even after changing the relay and jumping relay.
High pressure pump runs, changed filter.
Checked pressure at fuel rail, I have pressure!
New gas
New water pump, thermostat
New raw water pump
New belts, hoses, and oil lines
Fresh battery
Checked all grounding wires, looks good.
Checked for spark, I have spark.

I'm at a loss.......All I get is great oil pressure while turning over and an occasional backfire. A backfire to the point it blew the exhaust flap off.

Any ideas?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bfootr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-15-2020 at 10:50pm
Have you checked timing?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C_Heath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-15-2020 at 10:53pm
Have you put a timing light on it ? Wait, it won’t run, forget I asked. lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dockedwages1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-15-2020 at 11:13pm
If he can’t get it started how would you check for timing?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Orlando76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-15-2020 at 11:17pm
Dumb question but is the engine turning the correct direction? And you might want to check your muffler to make sure the strong backfire didn’t cause it to crack.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NautiqueHack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-15-2020 at 11:20pm
Exactly, can't check timing if not running. Also, the timing is controlled by the ECM so I don't believe this can be adjusted anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NautiqueHack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-15-2020 at 11:22pm
Originally posted by Orlando76 Orlando76 wrote:

Dumb question but is the engine turning the correct direction? And you might want to check your muffler to make sure the strong backfire didn’t cause it to crack.
Yes, The engine is turning in the correct direction, I removed the cap and used the starter to check rotation in conjunction with the firing order. All is correct.

At this point, if I cracked the muffler then I will replace after it's back up and running.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Orlando76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-15-2020 at 11:25pm
Ah yeah I see now in original post you said you verified rotation. A cracked hull hugger muffler could be dangerous if your on the water. Just a reminder. If while testing at the house you feel there’s more water in bilge than should be.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-16-2020 at 12:10am
Fill us in a little more please did you end up replacing the block or did you have it rebuilt? Was the distributor taken out of the block? And yes you can use a timing light put it on #1 cylinder and see if your getting spark ie the light will flash and see where it flashes on the harmonic balancer's timing marks, should be somewhere near TDC. A GT40 has to be adjusted to the proper base setting for the ECM to adjust from there, There is also a procedure to time it to base as well. If the distributor wasn't put in the proper way in the first place this very well could be your troubles.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NautiqueHack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-16-2020 at 12:13am
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

Fill us in a little more please did you end up replacing the block or did you have it rebuilt? Was the distributor taken out of the block? And yes you can use a timing light put it on #1 cylinder and see if your getting spark ie the light will flash and see where it flashes on the harmonic balancer's timing marks. A GT40 has to be adjusted to the proper base setting for the ECM to adjust from there, There is also a procedure to time it to base as well. If the distributor wasn't put in the proper way in the first place this very well could be your troubles.
Very interesting, I will do some research to learn how and confirm. However, I did pull the engine and transmission but only to get easy access to all parts to replace. This is the original engine, heads, internals, and distributor have not been removed/replaced.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-16-2020 at 12:17am
How did you determine where to put cyl #1 (on the distributor)?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NautiqueHack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-16-2020 at 12:24am
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

How did you determine where to put cyl #1 (on the distributor)?

I used the diagram in the nautique manual.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-16-2020 at 12:34am
And therein lies the problem
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-16-2020 at 12:39am
What Tim is leading to is you put #1 piston on it's compression stroke- pointer on the timing cover will be at TDC on the harmonic balancer. Then as you drop the distributor into place make sure the rotor points to #1 position on the cap as close as possible. If your off a tooth one way or another you will be able to adjust for that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-16-2020 at 4:19am
Keep in mind that the engine will be on Top Dead Center twice in each complete cycle.
Once for exhaust stroke and once for Compression stroke. you can pull the spark plug in #1 and put your thumb or a compression tester in the hole. Now rotate your engine slowly and you will feel the compression building or see it on the gauge when you approach TDC on the compression stroke.
As you look down on the front of your engine below the distributor in your Ford you should notice one of your Heads is about 1" forward of the other head.   The First plug in this forward head is your Number 1 cylinder.   As you feel compression building start watching for your timing mark to come and align the harmonic balancer line with the TDC mark on your engine.   Top Dead Center at your Zero mark.
Once engine really is at TDC you can pull the distributor cap off and make sure your rotor inside the cap is actually pointing at the #1 plug wire on the distributor cap while you are at TDC.   If the Rotor is not at #1 you need to adjust.   At this point if you are off you have two options.   Move the Plug wires on the cap to the correct spots based on where your rotor is pointing or unbolt your distributor and lift it up to rotate the rotor to the place you want #1 to be pointing, as you drop it back down you will notice the rotor moves as it settles in, this is normal you just have to try a couple spots till you get it pointing to the spot you want.   The engine does not care where #1 is located as long as the rotor is pointing at the #1 plug at the proper time and all the following wires are in the correct order for your Engine and they circle the distributor cap in the proper direction your rotor will spin. It is always a good idea to have your #1 be in the same spot the factory set it at so the next wrench to touch your engine has an easier time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-16-2020 at 9:14am
Back in August of 2019 in your first thread, somebody local seems to have volunteered to help you out.

I think he knows his way around an engine

Here's a quote from that thread

Originally posted by woodyelc woodyelc wrote:

Please call Woody at 407-851-1965 40 years with Correct Craft


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-16-2020 at 10:26am
A backfire doesn’t go out the exhaust. You’ve got some fundamental misunderstandings and it’s time to get help.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NautiqueHack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-16-2020 at 10:44am
Originally posted by Hollywood Hollywood wrote:

A backfire doesn’t go out the exhaust. You’ve got some fundamental misunderstandings and it’s time to get help.
You're probably right which is the reason I said I was calling a tech. Thanks for your response.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back-fire
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NautiqueHack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-16-2020 at 10:46am
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

Keep in mind that the engine will be on Top Dead Center twice in each complete cycle.
Once for exhaust stroke and once for Compression stroke. you can pull the spark plug in #1 and put your thumb or a compression tester in the hole. Now rotate your engine slowly and you will feel the compression building or see it on the gauge when you approach TDC on the compression stroke.
As you look down on the front of your engine below the distributor in your Ford you should notice one of your Heads is about 1" forward of the other head.   The First plug in this forward head is your Number 1 cylinder.   As you feel compression building start watching for your timing mark to come and align the harmonic balancer line with the TDC mark on your engine.   Top Dead Center at your Zero mark.
Once engine really is at TDC you can pull the distributor cap off and make sure your rotor inside the cap is actually pointing at the #1 plug wire on the distributor cap while you are at TDC.   If the Rotor is not at #1 you need to adjust.   At this point if you are off you have two options.   Move the Plug wires on the cap to the correct spots based on where your rotor is pointing or unbolt your distributor and lift it up to rotate the rotor to the place you want #1 to be pointing, as you drop it back down you will notice the rotor moves as it settles in, this is normal you just have to try a couple spots till you get it pointing to the spot you want.   The engine does not care where #1 is located as long as the rotor is pointing at the #1 plug at the proper time and all the following wires are in the correct order for your Engine and they circle the distributor cap in the proper direction your rotor will spin. It is always a good idea to have your #1 be in the same spot the factory set it at so the next wrench to touch your engine has an easier time.
Thanks for the reply! If I can find a few minutes today I will work through this, I have some time before the tech will be scheduled.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-16-2020 at 10:46am
Originally posted by Hollywood Hollywood wrote:

A backfire doesn’t go out the exhaust. You’ve got some fundamental misunderstandings and it’s time to get help.


I guess you would call that loud noise out the exhaust that can happen when the timing is wrong, something else then?

My wife says I have some fundamental issues cause I can backfire from my mouth and my a** at the same time.

I just belch and fart and tell her "it's a guy thing"





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-16-2020 at 10:50am
Turning the ignition off for a few seconds then turning it on when cruising through a tunnel used to make a pretty loud noise out the exhaust.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Donald80SN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-16-2020 at 11:02am
On this site, there is a GT-40 trouble shooting guide.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zwoobah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-16-2020 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by Riley Riley wrote:

Turning the ignition off for a few seconds then turning it on when cruising through a tunnel used to make a pretty loud noise out the exhaust.


Unburnt fuel in the exhaust does make for interesting noise, and potentially popped mufflers. Little different than a backfire but can be caused by the same issue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NautiqueHack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-17-2020 at 10:59am
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

Keep in mind that the engine will be on Top Dead Center twice in each complete cycle.
Once for exhaust stroke and once for Compression stroke. you can pull the spark plug in #1 and put your thumb or a compression tester in the hole. Now rotate your engine slowly and you will feel the compression building or see it on the gauge when you approach TDC on the compression stroke.
As you look down on the front of your engine below the distributor in your Ford you should notice one of your Heads is about 1" forward of the other head.   The First plug in this forward head is your Number 1 cylinder.   As you feel compression building start watching for your timing mark to come and align the harmonic balancer line with the TDC mark on your engine.   Top Dead Center at your Zero mark.
Once engine really is at TDC you can pull the distributor cap off and make sure your rotor inside the cap is actually pointing at the #1 plug wire on the distributor cap while you are at TDC.   If the Rotor is not at #1 you need to adjust.   At this point if you are off you have two options.   Move the Plug wires on the cap to the correct spots based on where your rotor is pointing or unbolt your distributor and lift it up to rotate the rotor to the place you want #1 to be pointing, as you drop it back down you will notice the rotor moves as it settles in, this is normal you just have to try a couple spots till you get it pointing to the spot you want.   The engine does not care where #1 is located as long as the rotor is pointing at the #1 plug at the proper time and all the following wires are in the correct order for your Engine and they circle the distributor cap in the proper direction your rotor will spin. It is always a good idea to have your #1 be in the same spot the factory set it at so the next wrench to touch your engine has an easier time.

Thank you again for the thoughtful response! Last night I verified my timing is correct. What I found interesting is that none of my plugs were wet. I assumed since I had fuel in the rails, pumps were working that I was getting fuel. Now that I have eliminated the timing issue my focus leads me to injectors clogged and not working?

A little more history, the gentlemen I purchased the boat said it has not ran in years. The date on the oil filter was somewhere around 7 years ago so there is no telling when this engine ran.

The tech is slow and I won't be able to drag it down there until tomorrow, I might try and test the injectors this evening after work and see if they are seized. I wouldn't think all eight would quit but after years of fuel sitting in them, they could be gummed up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-17-2020 at 12:54pm
Squirt some gas (like less than an ounce) into the manifold (put flame arrestor back on) & see if it comes to life.

IIRC there is an inexpensive fuel injection relay that can fail.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NautiqueHack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-18-2020 at 6:11pm
Well, it's back! After a month at the shop the fuel injectors were the problem, all 8. They were removed, sent out for a rebuild, and now runs like a champ. I threw an alternator belt but that was my fault for not looking at the alignment of the pulleys, that will remedied this evening.

Now, this boat has never floated on my watch. We slid it in the lake on Friday and ran it for a little while. I did find out we are taking in too much water to be comfortable. The bilge will run for about 1-2 minutes after a 5 min run around the lake. The search for the water starts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Orlando76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-18-2020 at 6:42pm
1-2 minutes? Wow that’s ALOT of water.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Orlando76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-18-2020 at 6:43pm
Originally posted by Orlando76 Orlando76 wrote:

Dumb question but is the engine turning the correct direction? And you might want to check your muffler to make sure the strong backfire didn’t cause it to crack.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NautiqueHack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-18-2020 at 7:17pm
Correct engine rotation, check.

The water is a little strange so far. It really only enters the boat when I'm running. Sitting in the water and idling there is not noticeable water intrusion. If I run around the lake, boom water in the aft of the boat. I'm thinking it could be from the rudder leaking or....well I don't know. More investigation is needed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-18-2020 at 8:40pm
Is the bilge water warm?
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