the long road ahead - 67 Nautique resto/mod |
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FrankT
Senior Member Joined: September-07-2006 Status: Offline Points: 245 |
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A couple of pics:
This is the exhaust noted. Brass trim with copper. Floor stringer cleat concept on a spruce stringer. This is behind the engine about where the prop shaft goes through the keel |
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FrankT
Senior Member Joined: September-07-2006 Status: Offline Points: 245 |
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Thanks for your comments. One thing to note about the epoxy flex is that the brittleness is a function of cure rate. Typically a 1:1 epoxy will be much more flexible than a 3:1. I used to have a link to one of the manufactures specifications but I can not find it anymore.
The other thing with the cleat concept is that it really becomes a sacrificial piece. If it rots, pop it off with a chisel and put a new one on. Same with the oak floor battens. Screw the flooring only to these members and not to the stringers. It's going to get wet eventually and if they rot just unscrew replace. In the 71SN the only wood that has survived is the oak under the tank and the oak piece at the base of the rear valance. These pieces where not even sealed. A removal floor is just a inspection and maintenance issue. I have a wood boat similar to yours and the floor is removable. Every winter I open it up to take a look and to also to let it dry out. For your mold I try bondo. Get a good release agent, this is key, and spray the original. Put the original on your bench on a piece of wax paper and then press the bondo onto it. Hopefully it will work into the details of the original. Another product that might work is epoxy but you will have to devise some method to contain it. Frank |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21145 |
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I agree with Pete, he's the expert. In regards to a removable floor, while it would be nice to access the entire structure to inspect for damage or water intrusion, I think such a concept has too many problems to become viable. The incorporation of the floor into the structure of the boat (essentially tying the stringers together to the hull walls in all directions) really adds to the structural rigidity of the boat. That requires a good bond down to the stringers and several layers of glass to the walls. You also dont want any water intrusion points, so the structural joints also serve to seal the structure off.
I think that there are a lot of opportunities to improve on the factory stringer and floor design- even if going back with a similar methods (wood stringers and glass over foam floor). We now know the weak areas (batt box drains, air vents, weak bulkheads, seat screws, etc) and have improved methods and materials (epoxy resin, CPES, 5200, composites) to work with. I think this can be taken several steps beyond with no-foam approaches, all the way up to using composites. Allowing the structure to breathe is huge, as evidenced by the early glass CC's without foam that dont have any rot. Personally, Im taking the approach my next few jobs to 1)fully seal the structure so no water can get in, 2)no use of foam below the floor so it wont hold water, 3)providing drains for the under floor cavities to drain together, but 4)not draining the cavities to the bilge (as this would provide an intrusion point) and instead provide a few sealed access points to remove the water should it ever get in somehow. Just my take. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Frank, I feel you're getting into some "uncharted territory" with some of your ideas. Not that they are bad but allow me to make some comments. It's always good to think "outside of the box"!!! Everthing below the carpet should be CPES'd, glassed and epoxied. Epoxy alone although it's a good sealer it's brittle. You need the glass for strength preventing cracking at any stress point. Using only epoxy you will get cracking and water will get to the wood. This has been proven many times over on wood hulls that have had the "West epoxy bottom" jobs. It never worked. The White Oak for cleats/cross members is a nice idea but drilling a pilot hole for water to drain out isn't going to work. The water will just soak sideways into the wood. Concrete "form board" is made so nothing sticks to it so you will have a problem. A better choice would be "sign board" which is a weather proof board with a high pressure laminate on it's face. I however feel it's overkill. Exterior grade epoxied/glassed (4oz. glass) ply has proven itself. Any hole for removable flooring is a potential spot for water intrusion. Is there a reason you want to make the complete floor removable? With the exception of the lift off section behind the dog house, consider bedding/epoxying the rest of the floor down. Yes then just like Mike did, if screws must be used do CPES/epoxy them in. The glassing of the sides of the stringers does add strength in the same analogy you mentioned regarding "beam depth". However, it's not for abrasion but more for keeping the water out as mentioned above. BTW, my pulling a master mold off my Dunphy step pad was a disaster. The silicone casting compound outgassed severely between it and the step pan. No indication from the outside until I pulled the mold off. Back to the drawing board!! |
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WakeSlayer
Grand Poobah Joined: March-15-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2138 |
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Frank,
I plan to permanently install most of the floor. The removeable rear panel will be from engine to rear, and secondary to secondary. I want access to my exhaust in the unlikely event of a failure. I plan to just adhere to the stringers with epoxy, but will probably use a few sealed and filled screws. It works better than weights to flatten the floor down well. I was unable to prevent a couple small warps in my ply before. I weighted as soon as I got it home, and weighted and clamped while sealing. I have the same copper elbows below the actual manifolds. I like the idea of having it stretched slightly as I know it will be an absolute bear to get on the fittings. There are so many discussions about layup, it becomes hard to pick which route you will go with. I do like the idea of the biax over the top once and will do a fat strip up to the top after that. As Pete said, this thing will break ice when I am done. It may be overkill, but it will be bulletproof. |
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Mike N
1968 Mustang |
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FrankT
Senior Member Joined: September-07-2006 Status: Offline Points: 245 |
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I have a 71SN and am a little behind you with my progress. Port stringers are out and I am test fitting the new currently. I have some questions and thoughts on one of your earlier posts:
"I did epoxy the floor down in the Mustang, but I also used some screws. Partly for the strength, and partly to hold down the ply as it had a couple twists in it from sitting around, despite being weighted. I pre-drilled, and epoxied the holes, countersunk slightly, and filled the tops. That floor is never coming out. The 3/4" does not have hardly any flex to it. I have a couple aluminum angles across between the stringers in the Mustang to support the removeable panel. It is just main stringer width. On this boat, I will have it go 7.5" wider on each side to the secondaries so I can access the exhaust if need be. This may require more support." I am likewise a no-foamer and was also considering to make my floor removable. Is that what you are also considering? For the floor battens I am planing on using 1x2 white oak starting at the rear valance and locating them on 16" centers. It lays out well in accommodating 4x8 plywood. For flooring I was thinking about using 1/2" concrete form ply but may have a problem getting the carpet glue to stick. One other thing I was going to do was not screw my floor battens directly into the main stringer but rather epoxy an oak cleat onto the side of the stringer and then screw into it. I plan to drill a small pilot hole through the oak cleat so on the event that water does find its way to these screws it can drain out the bottom. “With respect to my exhaust. I have copper pipes that go out the back. They are 3 1/8" OD. I need to put my boards in in the next day or so. Seeking opinions on whether to leave these or replace with 3" stainless. On one hand, the copper could be all shiny and pretty, but require constant cleaning. How hard will it be to force modern 3" wired hose over these? I am sure I can get it, but may be tough. Also, I imagine I will have a hard time getting a hole saw that size so I would have to likely drill 3", then sand round to the larger size.” I have a boat that has the copper through the transom. Works well and eliminates some subfloor maintenance. On mine I have a copper elbow up to the exhaust with a short piece of rubber connecting the two. Getting the rubber over the pipe was solved by taking the shot rubber pieces to my local muffler shop and having them stretch them a bit on one of the pipe expanding machines. You can buy a similar tool from Harbor Freight. I don’t polish them as you will never win the battle. I can post a picture if you would like. “I did two more runs of tape on the inside of the mains last night. I have currently, 2", 2", 4", 8" cap, 8", 4". I still have enough to do another 8" down the joint if need be. Opinions on adding or just leaving it? Then I plan to cap with biax, then do a wide strip of biax from hull to the top edge of the stringers. I am going to do some repair and buildup work around the strut, and I think this will tie into that well. Thoughts?” I am of the opinion that glassing wood in the thickness you are doing is done for abrasion resistance. Granted it does ad some strength but not significantly. If you think about it a stringer is actually acting like a beam/joist with its strength being largely a function of depth. I am considering to install the stingers with reinforced fillets as you did but just sealing above the cloth with several coats of brushed epoxy. Frank |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Got it! Yes on another layer over the top. Then, like I suggested to Andy, a additional layer around the engine/trans mount area especially since you're going original without a engine cradle. |
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WakeSlayer
Grand Poobah Joined: March-15-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2138 |
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Pete, I just have one 8" layer over the top. I partly did this to break up the joint lines a bit. I actually have 5 layers at the fillet now.
Charlie, I got one at lunch yesterday. However, now after looking, I installed the boards and will drill them later. The angle they mount in there made it seem to me it would be easier that way to drill the hole straight oriented to the stringers. The transom has a pretty good curve to it. |
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Mike N
1968 Mustang |
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Brady
Senior Member Joined: June-28-2008 Location: Lake Elmo, Mn. Status: Offline Points: 226 |
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Mike
you can get a 3-1/8 hole saw |
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Charlie
Three Lakes, Wisconsin 69 Barracuda |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Mike, You've got plenty at the hull to stringer (4 layers at the fillet). Now if I'm reading this correctly the rest of the stringerover the top you have 3 layers correct and 1 biax to go? That's plenty too. You'll be able to be the last one on the lake (or first in spring). That thing will break ice!! |
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WakeSlayer
Grand Poobah Joined: March-15-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2138 |
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Any opinions on the above? Kinda got lost in the other discussions about exhuast. |
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Mike N
1968 Mustang |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Keegan, The single ring around the copper exhaust pipe is a carry over from the wood boat era. If you look on the backside of the ring, there's a chamfer on the ID next to the pipe. Rope packing just like you use in the prop shaft and rudder stuffing box is wrapped around the pipe. When the flange is tightened, the packing is compressed sealing out the water. Some times it worked other times it didn't!! The design also allowed for thermal expansion of the exhaust pipe because the pipe would move in the packing slightly. This was important back when there wasn't any rubber in the exhaust. It was hard piped directly to the engine. Later like your boat along with better sealants, the exhaust "tip" became one piece. Don't go looking for copper on your tips. You'll grind through the chrome! |
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WakeSlayer
Grand Poobah Joined: March-15-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2138 |
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Like Bruce said, they were inconsistent in the 60's as to what they used. Whatever was laying around is kind of the way it worked. The pipes on our 68 mustang are totally different. These are just what this boat happens to have.
I am only polishing the outside, not the inside. |
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Mike N
1968 Mustang |
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Keeganino
Grand Poobah Joined: October-27-2009 Location: North Carolina Status: Offline Points: 2063 |
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I must be confused. My copper pipes are completely buried under the removable ply. My exhaust caps that screw into the transom seem to be chromed. I was going to have them re-chromed along with many other parts. I can't see the copper at all though and apart from removing the grime have no intentions of polishing something that I can't see. What am I missing or is this boat laid out differently?
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"working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger
1973 Skier |
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7952 |
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I don't know what he was thinking. The paint on the transom was perfect. The exhaust looks great, but not when you look at what he did to the transom. My guess is he was going to paint the boat and didn't care. We're going to touch it up for the short term. The copper and chrome does look good though.
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WakeSlayer
Grand Poobah Joined: March-15-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2138 |
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My engine will love me.
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Mike N
1968 Mustang |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Mike,
The extra 1/8" gives the exhaust about 8.6% extra breathing room!! |
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WakeSlayer
Grand Poobah Joined: March-15-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2138 |
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Bruce, Why would some one do that?!?!?!?!?
I have chrome rings that slide of the pipe and screw to the transom. I will polish them before I install and see if I can keep up with it. Pete, I like it! I have found the correct hole saws online, I am a bit more impatient than that and want to find one today. I thought I had a 3 at home, and was going to use that. Upon further review, it is a 3.5. |
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Mike N
1968 Mustang |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Bruce, He must have run out of masking tape?? Really though, was he planning on painting the hull again? Sure doesn't look good!! |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Mike, I'd leave the copper. If the factory got 3" on the 3&1/8" OD then I'm sure you can too. No matter what the size, the exhaust is always a fight! Besides, keeping the copper gives you more exhaust breathing room!! BTW, hole saws over 2&1/2" come sized in 1/8ths so finding the correct size won't be a problem. Below 2&1/2, they come in 1/16ths. |
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7952 |
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Leave it. Copper looks nice. Don't ask me why someone would polish the pipes at the expense of the transom.
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critter
Platinum Member Joined: January-11-2008 Location: New Hill, NC Status: Offline Points: 1227 |
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I did the same with the Barracuda. I used 3/4 exterior grade. Also filet the edges to the hull and then glassed the floor to the hull and to the stingers. If water gets to the foam, it will have to come in thru the hull. And if it does that, only the very top of the foam does not have the self sealing coating on it. I sanded the top of the foam down smooth with a belt sander before I biaxialed over the foam and crossmembers. |
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1980 Ski Nautique
1966 Barracuda |
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WakeSlayer
Grand Poobah Joined: March-15-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2138 |
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so, would you leave it? or replace it? I kind of want to leave it. And it is original!
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Mike N
1968 Mustang |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Mike,
The last time I had to fight the copper pipe sizing (1/8" over nominal) was on my X55. It's got 2&1/2" copper so the OD is 2&5/8. Yes, 2&1/2" hose did go on it but not without a fight!! Mcmaster does list rubber coolant hose in a 3&1/8" size. |
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7952 |
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Correct Craft used both copper and SS for the exhaust with no consistancy that I can see. The guy we bought the Classic from spent a lot of time polishing those copper pipes and then putting a sealer on them. The boat has about 15 hours on it and has not been left in the water when not in use and they are pretty dull already, so I'd say keeping them pretty is a lot or work.
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WakeSlayer
Grand Poobah Joined: March-15-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2138 |
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That is what I have been considering as I have been working on it. I did epoxy the floor down in the Mustang, but I also used some screws. Partly for the strength, and partly to hold down the ply as it had a couple twists in it from sitting around, despite being weighted. I pre-drilled, and epoxied the holes, countersunk slightly, and filled the tops. That floor is never coming out. The 3/4" does not have hardly any flex to it. I have a couple aluminum angles across between the stringers in the Mustang to support the removeable panel. It is just main stringer width. On this boat, I will have it go 7.5" wider on each side to the secondaries so I can access the exhaust if need be. This may require more support. With respect to my exhaust. I have copper pipes that go out the back. They are 3 1/8" OD. I need to put my boards in in the next day or so. Seeking opinions on whether to leave these or replace with 3" stainless. On one hand, the copper could be all shiny and pretty, but require constant cleaning. How hard will it be to force modern 3" wired hose over these? I am sure I can get it, but may be tough. Also, I imagine I will have a hard time getting a hole saw that size so I would have to likely drill 3", then sand round to the larger size. I did two more runs of tape on the inside of the mains last night. I have currently, 2", 2", 4", 8" cap, 8", 4". I still have enough to do another 8" down the joint if need be. Opinions on adding or just leaving it? Then I plan to cap with biax, then do a wide strip of biax from hull to the top edge of the stringers. I am going to do some repair and buildup work around the strut, and I think this will tie into that well. Thoughts? |
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Mike N
1968 Mustang |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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well I though that panel was removal in most and the cross members are for support for the removal panel and for the people sitting in the back seat too.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Mike,
Considering the close spacing of stringers and crossmembers the 1/2" would be a option if you want to save some weight. However, I suggest defiantly epoxying the ply down to the stringers and crossmembers. No screws unless they are temporary until the epoxy cures. Places like the removable center section aft of the dog house where support may be lacking, a couple 1x2's glassed to the bottom (on edge) of the ply will provide the support. Where the floor meets the hull side, you may what to incorporate the wood backing for the spray rails to support the floor as well. |
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WakeSlayer
Grand Poobah Joined: March-15-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2138 |
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I glued blocks on the side of the hull in the Mustang. The longitudinals set on top of those. I am considering something similar for the spray rail mounts. It seems easier than a couple 5 foot boards run along the inside. Especially as half the screws are below the floor and half are above.
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Mike N
1968 Mustang |
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7952 |
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Our Classic has 1/2" which is what I think was used originaly. It is adequate, buy is definately a little springy, especially in areas where there is no support under the floor.
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