can you say?

Okay, had to make this a separate post because I wanted to address Austin's (AbundDiga909's) follow up to my earlier long rambling.

First, Austin, I appreciate the tone of your reply. I figured I was getting a little sharp on a few points and I sort of expected that I might be setting up there to get my head bitten off! Anyway, thanks for that!

I did want to comment though (hopefully more briefly), since a couple of things in your reply caught my attention.   

When you say "I'm not asking us to embrace their religion" my thought is that, assuming someone holds to the belief that the Christian faith played a larger roll in the development of our country than some now say, if we would see a Muslim taking the office of U.S. president, as incidental, then that is, in a very real sense, the U.S. embracing Islam.

I understand there are lots of folks who have no quarrel with that; too often, I'm afraid because they just don't really care about such things anymore.

The differences in how we're viewing things here are clear in that you are ready to let go of what you call a "notion" (the idea that we were first, and for a long time, a Christian nation) but what I would call an important fact of history that we should hold on to for some very good reasons.

To say we should be celebrating the thought that "we were founded by immigrants," for one thing, I'm not sure is right either. Nothing really wrong with "celebrating" immigrants being here I suppose (since many (or most) of us are immigrants (or decendents of)), but the statement has a ring of all this celebrating diversity stuff which I think is again getting back to embracing "all" of "everybody's" belief systems when I am trying to respectfully maintain that there are not many roads to the same place (spiritually speaking) and that our country held that as a majority opinion once upon a time.

I'd say we might certainly celebrate that we were, early on, "populated by" immigrants and so there's a diversity of cultures here; it makes life interesting for sure, as they say "variety is the spice of life" but I have seen too much detailed info. that supports the fact of a very strong Christian heritage in the U.S.

I also understand the attempted balance you're trying to achieve by saying that (I'm paraphrasing here) you would never ask anyone to embrace our religion. That does sound good and fair and balanced at first, and it sort of sounds like another well-worn saying – something like "I don't like people trying to cram their religion down my throat, etc. etc. " (or something like that).

I suppose I agree with the "cramming" part, but as for "asking" (as you did say), someone to "embrace our religion" if it is Christian, I'd have to say I would be all right with that. After all, that is a basic tenet of Christianity, to strive to persuade others to believe.   "Go...teach all nations...teaching them to observe all things...I have commanded" are words of Jesus (see Matthew 28:19-20 on what's commonly called "the Great Commission").

I know I'm getting a little "preachy" here for a web site about boats, but hey this is the "Off Topic" forum!

Again, I understand there was more to what you originally posted than the spiritual content, but I guess I sort of honed in on that as the most important.

And again, thanks for taking my rambling seriously and respectfully.

Craig
(64X55)

Azues, what did you think of China?
the gas prices dropped and i sold my 454 suburban....they'll be back...(gas prices)

sit for one hour and think what would really happen if every American decided not to by an Asian car for one year.

what would happen to thier economy?
what would happen to our economy?
the price of cars are market driven,
there are 2 ways to make money, by volume and by price, if your sales decline you have to increase price, if your volume increases you can decrease prices. prices of new cars have skyrocketed to compete and this is why you are seeing lease programs disappearing, because the turn in value is not there. the car depreciates so much when it rolls off the lot. actually i think it would only take 6 months

just trying to draw you in to the conversation

yeah you, me and you are completely opposite on things but on the same page as other things. I just like to get a rise out of you

Greg, I really think I get on here just to get a reaction out of you..its hard to hurt my feelings....Its a new day out there, the sun is shining, steaks thawing for later, just trying to make the world a better place.....without profiting

is that a middle finger or a thumb?

we could knock the world on its ass in 30 days, it all comes together when you think about it, once again my mother drives a Hyundai, my brother my father in law they all drive Hyundais. I really dont care what somebody drives, I look at it from a business sense, someone here recently went to China and couldnt believe what they saw.....they saw the US 20 years ago.
the Government has no control on what car a person buys, it is a mind set from the 80's that foriegn cars are better...i also work on cars everyday and they are not a better car, if anything the foriegn cars have lost alot of quality and the American cars gained in quality and pretty much equaled out.
when you run a business you need more money coming in than going out. the same philosophy applies with the government and the economy or you create a deficit.
people and thier choices control the economy

good......now start buying some good ole American Iron and we'll be great again

Thanks guys -- You know, it's awful warm here in Western Maryland for a mid November day; I think I might go for a "second" final boat ride this evening...

Stabil is in the gas tank but I didn't fog yet!

For sure that is the longest post on here. It flowed well and I was able to read the whole thing too!

Reading this thread was entertaining, but a bit disturbing. I wanted to address some things said earlier in the post.

AbunDiga909 said (somewhere above): “To say that all muslims are extremists is extremely racist.”   

To use one of my favorite quips AbunDiga909, “I don’t think that word means what you think it means!”

Being “racist” deals with being critical of or hateful toward someone because of their (as the label implies) “RACE” not because of their religious affiliation (which is what being Muslim is).

Of course that seems to be just a confusion of terms here, but if you’re going to speak, you should at least try to use words that make proper sense. You might have employed the use of the word “bigot” or “bigotry” which is broader and could include race “and” religious discrimination of sorts.

Eric saying that Muslim is a religion is wrong too. It’s not. Islam is the religion; “Muslim” is an adherent to the religion of Islam. Don’t ask me why, it’s just the way it is! I’m kidding! I’m sure there’s a reason and I’ve often wondered, but I don’t know what it is (without doing a little research). All I know on that matter is that you don’t call people of the Islamic religion “Islams” like you call adherents of Christianity “Christians.” They are Muslims but the religion is “Islam.”

Okay, now that we’ve whipped through day one of Religion 101, Etymology 101 and Grammar 101, let’s move on.

I think what you are getting at in your varied post replies is that you believe Skinaut is out of touch and just plain nasty and ignorant! That’s what I got out of what you said, even though I thought he made some perfectly valid points. In reading your comments, it seems to me that there is actually some degree of ignorance flying around there in what you’ve written. You apparently didn’t read his entire post and sensibly consider what he was saying.

You say (regarding Skinaut) that his comment was:

“ …One of the most racist, close-minded, outright disgusting things I’ve heard in a long time…” a bit of a harsh assessment, don’t you think? Also, you make this rather “biting” remark: - “I had thought our country matured from people like you....”   

Wow!

Well we’ve already established that you used “racist” improperly, but, moving along, when you really look at it, what Skinaut said does not warrant your critical comments at all. He prefaced what he said with “Whether we want to admit it or not” implying that he himself didn’t feel that way (regarding the thought of a black president) and he closed by saying “Sorry, right or wrong, that’s just the way it is.”

The problem with your attacks on poor ole’ Skinaut is that those “are” legitimate statements and he qualified them with indications that he didn’t really even agree with them, but you climbed all over him without considering that.

I can honestly say that a president’s skin color is, to me, irrelevant (aside from the admittedly historical interest) provided he is a good man for the job. But, the fact is that what Skinaut said is true; “some folks” will still be affected by that, rightly or wrongly in their decision process. I’d say wrongly, and I think Skinaut implied that of himself as well.

Now, moving to the concern of an Islamic President, in the U.S.; here’s where it gets a bit stickier. And I reference this because you insisted that “…if he were (a Muslim), it doesn’t matter.” There indeed are some reasons for concern about that and they are, unfortunately, tied, in some cases, to terrorism and the wiggle room within some Islamic thought for that kind of behavior. Certainly there are many Muslims who do not approve of terrorism, but there are those (and plenty of them) who do justify terrorism by what they have been taught and those “whats” have often been loosely justified by the Koran (the book Muslims follow).

Now, before you jump to some hair-brained statement about similar things being reasonably said of the Bible and the Christian faith, I would caution to remain aware that I believe I could make a very strong argument against that mindset. I’m saying that based on my reading of (or about) each, the Koran has more opportunity for justifying such behavior; not what men have done with either through some of history, but specifically, what the two books ultimately teach. If you want to debate that elsewhere, I’d welcome the opportunity.

So, again moving on, here’s the thing. If you look at the entire history of the varied faith’s of all the men who have been U.S. president’s, you will find that all (from “George to George” and don’t forget, even Obama’s claim to some Christian connection has been prominent and so apparently important in this past campaign) have been, basically Christian with the exception of a couple (maybe a few – I’m doing this from memory) “Deists” in the mix. There is certainly some diversity in the group with regard to how much they relied on their faith, etc., but the list is small and “mostly” within the realm of Christianity for all these many years! If you question this, check out the book “God and the Oval Office.” It reveals clearly that the list includes a perhaps surprising number of Presbyterians and Episcopalians, some Methodists, a couple of Quakers, a few Baptists, one Catholic, and maybe a Lutheran or two; I forget exactly, but the list is very much like what I’ve described here. Note, those are all Christian denominations, but still all within Christianity.

So what does that say? I believe it says that, despite what we’ve being force fed for many years now, our country was originally a strongly Christian based country and that many feel we would be foolish to not continue to recognize that in our highest decision making arenas.

So when you say “…He IS NOT a muslim, first of all. And second of all, even if he were, doesn't matter” that is only one opinion (yours). Whether it’s one that is gaining acceptance or popularity doesn’t make it a finished fact. Many, like myself, I believe would feel strongly otherwise. And that doesn’t mean I hate anyone. It just means I have a solid belief about our Christian heritage in the U.S.

Getting one’s head wrapped around Church and State issues and supposed Tolerance or Intolerance issues is getting stickier and I agree that there’s never a time to be hateful, but there is a time to stand for what you believe, and if that means disagreeing strongly with opinions or voicing opposition to statements that are not well thought out and without basis, then so be it.

I noticed (reviewing the profiles) that you are 19 years old and Skinaut is 78 years old. I bring this to light because I’ve noticed younger people even up to beyond 30 are being more and more softened to this idea that “tolerance” means embracing everybody’s views and beliefs as equally valid. That’s nonsense and we better wake up and recognize that.

I heard some good commentary on this not long ago. Somewhere I read that the definition of tolerance has been evolving from what our grandparents meant by it, and that was to treat others (of different views and beliefs), with decency simply because they are fellow human beings, but to “embrace” and consider equally valid, for instance, Islam when you are a Christian is just utter nonsense. It doesn’t work; the two are not compatible.

If you don't buy that, ask a Muslim if they are willing to “embrace” Christianity as equally valid compared to their belief.

I think anyone who is honest and informed and the least bit knowledgeable knows what answer they’d get to that!

To close, I’d like to say again (as I think I eluded to this in a previous post perhaps over a year ago now), let’s keep the option of discussions on politics and religion open. I was disappointed to see that one site (incidentally another cool boating site) so much as banned such discussions because they got a bit heated at times. Well big deal! Just keep it respectable and not nasty and we all might learn something.

Wow, I think I said this before too but it’s worth repeating. I’m always disappointed to hear anyone use the old cliché line “Two things I never talk about are politics and religion!” That’s just plain silly. You’re religion (even if it’s a lack of one) and your beliefs are most often what you hold most dear and your political views are often tempered by your basic beliefs (as it should logically be). So to paraphrase that dumb cliché could be just as easily worded “Don’t ever talk about what is really ultimately important in life.”

One day we’ll all pull our boats into a dock somewhere for the last time. What then? To me, that seems like something to tuck into in “the most important stuff of life” category and consider deeply and frequently!

Let’s not be afraid to talk about it for fear of offending someone. And AbunDiga909, I see, also from your profile that you’re still in school (i.e. still in the “education process” i.e. “still learning”); so “keep thinking” and remember this little quote I’ve always liked: “Education is like perfume; smell it, don’t swallow it!”   

there are serial killers who are devout catholics,
Muslim, is a religion as is christianity....not all Muslims think alike,as i am catholic but not a serial killer. you know the difference between good and evil.
im not taking a side, just trying to get a point across.

when you poke at the beehive, your gonna get stung

And again...I must remind SOMEONE that Veterans Day is November 11th. Let's show the respect and honor that these men and women deserve. That IS the way it is IF you are "proud" of our US of A. Posted from a proud United States Airforce and United States Army miltary family member.

skinaut, that is one of the most racist, close-minded, outright disgusting things ive heard in a long time. the fact that you say that seriously is extremely dissapointing--i had thought our country matured from people like you....

He IS NOT a muslim, first of all. And second of all, even if he were, doesn't matter.

Good for all those people in your town fighting in the military. Its a very honorable job and extremely dangerous. But I wish you would travel to these places and spend some time there first hand to see what our military is doing right now--not the most honorable stuff....

Many recent attacks around the world are a direct result of our presense and actions in these Arab nations. Sorry, right or wrong That's just the way it is.