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Stringer project, possible v-drive conv.

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eric lavine View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Stringer project, possible v-drive conv.
    Posted: March-08-2011 at 10:07am



posted the internal guts of a 630v, very robust as you can tell
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wlaust3 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wlaust3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-07-2011 at 6:02pm
I'm sold on 3/4" exterior plywood.
And I'll probably do something fancy for the pylon area especially since I'm not putting the battery box back.

I already put my batteries far forward in the bow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Keeganino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-07-2011 at 5:49pm
Ok lets all make fun of the fat kid

The two most rotten areas on my boat were around the pylon and under the seat bases- the two areas of the floor that are under the most stress and flex. I would imagine that flex allows more water intrusion to these areas so my rationing was that if you reduce the flex you increase the years of safe operation. Probably over the top but I can tell you I will never worry about it either. Ply wood is a lot cheaper than epoxy...

We both seem to agree 1/2" is skimpy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-07-2011 at 4:49pm
Originally posted by Keeganino Keeganino wrote:

If you only use half inch for the floor you will have to use a lot of glass to make it solid. I used 3/4" in the back and 2 layers of 3/4" from the pylon forward so that you have some meat to bolt the seats down to. I dont think half inch is gonna cut it when it comes to mounting your seats.

Keegan,
I've got to disagree and feel you went slightly heavy on you floor but, in your case, seeing your stature you're probably very smart.

Yes, 1/2" is on the light side but with glass on both sides and proper support from the stringer system is fine. I'd say using 5/8 would be a good compromise. Glueing some additional strips of ply just under the seat base screws is a good idea.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Keeganino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-07-2011 at 3:46pm
If you only use half inch for the floor you will have to use a lot of glass to make it solid. I used 3/4" in the back and 2 layers of 3/4" from the pylon forward so that you have some meat to bolt the seats down to. I dont think half inch is gonna cut it when it comes to mounting your seats.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-07-2011 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by wlaust3 wlaust3 wrote:

This is my first post on this site but I've been reading it for years.

Originally posted by wlaust3 wlaust3 wrote:


what should I use for the secondary?

I'm thinking 1/2" marine grade.

Better start reading more carefully.

Go with doug fir on the secondaries if you can. If its not available, Pete told me that hemlock or a clear white pine are suitable alternatives.

Dont bother with marine grade ply. Exterior grade uses the same waterproof glue at 20% of the cost. Marine grade simply has fewer internal voids, which is a non-issue for a floor... its only needed if youre building a hull out of it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wlaust3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-07-2011 at 12:55pm
So I cut out the floor and removed about 200 lbs of frozen foam. When I put everything back together I'm going to need more ballast :). I still have a bunch of demo work to do in the bow. Hopefully I'll get everything cleaned out by Wednesday so I can start figuring out what wood I'm going to buy.

Obviously dug fir for the main stringers but what should I use for the secondary? I am not replacing the foam and I'm going to use plywood for the floor. I'm thinking 1/2" marine grade. I want the secondary stringers to be beefier since next summer the engine may move to the back and the primary stringers will have cutouts for the engine though the middle.

I'm bad with pictures. I'll get my act together soon though as pictures are worth a thousand words.

-Bill
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eric lavine View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-05-2011 at 11:43am
yes true, but you move the engine a touch forward if need be, post this guy some pics of you kunundrum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luchog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-05-2011 at 11:26am
Eric, there's just one issue I see with the 630 unit and that it it's short profile, the 1:1 plus walter setup or the PCM Power Vee have a longer profile allowing engine placement on the verty stern of the boat and not needing to modify the shaft log.
In such a small boat you would end with a pretty short angled shaft.

Do you get my point?
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eric lavine View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-05-2011 at 10:06am
btw, no comparison of a Walters to a 630, but if this helps, model A, lamborgini
if you search Luchs threads you will see the end result of a Walters hanging in a boat. 630v comes in a 1.52 ratio...

Walters- needs a box ie: pcm, BW, zf 450 for ranges, 2 sets of cooler lines, 2 oil changes, 4 mounts, only good for forward in forward, very heavy, costly to repair....to many moving parts, outdated

zf 630, 1 cooler, 2 mounts, lightweight, you can put the selecter in either position to go forward under full power,
used in many 30 ft sea-rays pushing mass and spinning big wheels
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Keeganino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2011 at 3:48pm
Originally posted by wlaust3 wlaust3 wrote:

I don't know why I said "pulling the sides in".
My fear is that the trailer isn't sufficiently supporting the boat. This would imply that stress would have always existed between the fiberglass floor and sides of the hull while on the trailer and therefore the source of the delamination. Someone tell me I am wrong.
What would prevent the delamination from happening again. (Besides better workmanship :).

Seems a lot of the stringer rebuilds are done off of the trailer. This would be a pain for me but if it has to be done it has to be done.


If you have the original trailer they are designed to support the hull and would not likely cause that kind of damage alone. Tim is right about blocking it up. The boat does sag on the trailer and that is exaggerated when the stringers have delammed or have been removed. You can definitely do this on the trailer but blocking is required.

Another easy way to get smaller pics is to lower the resolution on your camera to the lowest it will go. They wont make great prints but will display fine on the screen. Usually 640x480. Cant use HTML in the threads.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrCC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2011 at 2:57pm
I like this one.

Re-Sizing Tool

you can re-name your files (photos) before you "save" to exactly what is in the photo.   So that when people do an image search, that's what comes up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wlaust3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2011 at 2:41pm
I wasn't sure if there was an easy way to set a max size in the image tag.
Or if I can just go HTML crazy.

Easy enough to resize before I upload though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2011 at 2:32pm
Originally posted by wlaust3 wlaust3 wrote:

Images too large...noted.

Any easy way to change the size?

MS Paint.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote storm34 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2011 at 2:26pm
I post all my pictures on facebook first. Sounds stupid but you can load any size image and they resize them automatically.

Looks like you have plenty of ambition on this thing. It'll be fun to see your progress. Good luck!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wlaust3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2011 at 2:10pm
Images too large...noted.

Any easy way to change the size?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wlaust3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2011 at 2:08pm
Posting these mostly to figure out how to upload and display images, please be patient if this doesn't work as I hope.


I had to build up above the rafters and take the wheels off the trailer to get enough clearance/travel to get the engine out. I was pretty nervous, I don't lift heavy things often and there seemed to be a lot of possible points of failure. All worked out though.


I gave my roommate some 2x4's and asked him to build me something to put the engine on. I think his stand could hold 10 times what is required...I'm not complaining though.

The whole ordeal took 4 people about 5 hours. Disconnecting, figuring everything out, etc. About as long as I expected. Had some issues disconnecting the shaft coupler from the transmission. Just didn't want to separate. Lots of tapping with a hammer, screw driver and wondering what I was missing. Finally let loose though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WakeSlayer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2011 at 1:46pm
Bruce,

I am reasonably sure that we could all knock it out quickly if we had a clean slate, pre-cut stringers, and experience of doing it repeatedly.
That, and then factor in that they don't care about the boats in the same sense that we do. They were just slamming them down the line, nothing special. They weren't building classic boats. Just boats.

My SN took me half the time to what I have done vs. the Mustang. And I did not replace the primaries in the first one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2011 at 1:34pm
We'll be staring a complete stringer/floor job at some point. Tear out is what I do best. Putting it back together is painfully slow. I got to wonder, how long did it take Correct Craft to do a stringer/floor job once the hull popped out of the mold? Probably only a day or two at most. They were working out of garages. How'd they do it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wlaust3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2011 at 1:33pm
I don't know why I said "pulling the sides in".
My fear is that the trailer isn't sufficiently supporting the boat. This would imply that stress would have always existed between the fiberglass floor and sides of the hull while on the trailer and therefore the source of the delamination. Someone tell me I am wrong.
What would prevent the delamination from happening again. (Besides better workmanship :).

Seems a lot of the stringer rebuilds are done off of the trailer. This would be a pain for me but if it has to be done it has to be done.

I have about a 50% follow through with the projects I start. I love this boat though so I will finish it. In my mind the extent is really what is in question. I have also been thinking about this, and documenting ideas for years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WakeSlayer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2011 at 1:23pm
Your friends may turn out to be busy more than you think. This is an absolute bitch of a project. You will want to punch yourself in the nuts a bunch of times in your journey for taking it on.
You also are going to need a bunch of tools. Grinder, jigsaw, power planar, hand tools, drills, bits. A band saw and a table saw will make life a lot easier too.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2011 at 1:12pm
Originally posted by Keeganino Keeganino wrote:

You dont need to pull the sides in when you rebuild.

I disagree. I found that blocking the chines was required to keep the hull from sagging while on the trailer... this will have a similar effect as "pulling the sides in".

Sounds like youve got a lot of ambition to get this project done... good for you. Just dont fizzle out half way through and end up with an unfinished project! This happens more often than you might think.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Keeganino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2011 at 1:02pm
Once the stringers are rotten all the flex causes the separation. The floor and hull are moving independently because of delamination. You dont need to pull the sides in when you rebuild. Glassing the floor to the walls ties everything together to make it stable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wlaust3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2011 at 12:56pm
If people want to argue something here you go.

Walters RV-26D vs ZF/Hurth 630v
pros/cons in regards to the boat I own 85 2001, 351w BW 1:1 VD.
Also gearing 1.46:1, 1.23:1, not sure whats available on the 630v

hopefully my actually questions won't get lost in these posts...fiberglass hull separation, quoted below
-Bill

Originally posted by wlaust3 wlaust3 wrote:


@floor side separation
What is causing the sides of the floor to be separated from the hull? Is the hull flexing out or the floor pulling in. Currently the boat is just on the trailer. Is this appropriate or does there need to be additional support? Do I have to pull the sides in somehow when I glass the new floor in?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Keeganino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2011 at 12:49pm
Originally posted by WakeSlayer WakeSlayer wrote:

That figure also doesn't count planning time, staring at stuff trying to figure it out, and lunch hours at the hardware store.


Good point Mike. The guys at my local Ace were beginning to think I worked there. I was in there almost every day for 3 months and know the fastener hardware isle better than they do. 200 hours of purpose drivben work. 500 hours of staring and figuring.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wlaust3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2011 at 12:45pm
I do realize my timeline is quite aggressive. But I do want to provision for a v-drive conversion as best as I can. Which hopefully will include getting a v-drive before I actually install new stringers.

I do have a lot of friends who like to use my boat, like to drink beer, and help out a lot with the projects I do. So with a bit of luck I will be close to meeting my timeline. I do have a full time job that tends to drain me sometimes.

A bit about myself, I do not have experience doing this sort of thing. My experience is in doing thing I haven't done before and my ability to do them with some degree of competence. I also am very patient and don't get upset when I mess things up. Which will inevitably happen during the project which will cost me a couple hundred bucks and half a day of work. But that's just the way it is.

I try to be realistic and really do take to heart all the advice I get. I do sometimes play devils advocate in order to make sure I get all the information possible to make my decisions.

I can tell already this is going to be a lot of fun.
I'll get some pictures up on sunday.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WakeSlayer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2011 at 12:16pm
I think that if you got after it starting today, June is pretty realistic. But you really have to go hard.

$2000, 200 hrs, 20 cases of beer.

You will run into many other things you will want to or should address at the same time. That figure also doesn't count planning time, staring at stuff trying to figure it out, and lunch hours at the hardware store.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2011 at 11:42am
Originally posted by wlaust3 wlaust3 wrote:

Here is the logic I was using, which may very well be faulty.
There are a certain set of props available for the 1" diameter shaft. I would think that the size/pitch combinations available would not be able to deliver more torque then the shaft could withstand. Granted there is more torque available from the gearing but I would think the actual amount of torque on shaft is based on the prop.
Maybe with those props available I can't get the desired performance. I have a decent understanding of mechanics(physics degree) although there is often something missed from theoretical to actual.

What type of reduction would you be looking at with the Walters? 1.5:1? If so, I agree that a 1-1/8" shaft would be ideal- theres a reason all the CC v-drives use that shaft size. That being said, I would bet that 1" would be sufficiently strong. Torque transmitted to the driveline is in fact determined by prop size, and there are several props in the 13x16 range for the 1" 1.23 boats that should suit this application just fine. High hp/tq engines like the ZR-409 and Joe's monster 408w use the 1.23 box and decent sized props and have not run into issues yet with the 1" shaft. I suspect that the 20% advantage of the 1.5:1 vs. 1.23:1 would be offset by his lower output small block anyways- at least compared to Joe's engine.

Regarding the stringer project, I will say that I think you will be undertaking a very aggressive schedule if you want the boat back on the water by June. Especially if this is your first stringer project. Figure it will take you 200-300 hours to complete it... thats a lot of nights and weekends. A v-drive conversion (or even just adding provisions to add one in the future) will add to this number, probably significantly. There will be a lot more unknowns in that type of project, and much fewer resources to help answer questions. Just something to think about!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wlaust3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2011 at 11:29am
Here is the logic I was using, which may very well be faulty.
There are a certain set of props available for the 1" diameter shaft. I would think that the size/pitch combinations available would not be able to deliver more torque then the shaft could withstand. Granted there is more torque available from the gearing but I would think the actual amount of torque on shaft is based on the prop.
Maybe with those props available I can't get the desired performance. I have a decent understanding of mechanics(physics degree) although there is often something missed from theoretical to actual.

Regardless, figuring this out right now isn't necessary. I will dig into the deeper though now. I do not want to sacrifice quality for cost but also don't want to go overboard with more than I need.

Either way the advice is appreciated, and I will come back with more support for whatever I eventually decide, which may be switching to a larger shaft.

-Bill
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luchog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2011 at 11:02am
Bill, the shaft diameter is not just a question of prop selection, since you're going with a reduction more torque will be transmitted to the prop, wich will also be larger pitched, you need a beefier shaft or it will bend/cut because of the torsionals.
There are safety concerns as well you see.

You base boat performance off the prop, if you dont have a prop selection that will perform on that boat dont even bother in taking the foam out. You are thinking on a way to big project to cheap on a strut and shaft replacement.
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