Trany, starter or neutral switch???

Hmmmm?? water/sulfer mix very old, today not the same?????????? no current flow no heat no energy loss,no reaction,still stored as????, poticial(SP) energy not transfer to kenetic, still potencial (sp) energy no load no lose stays same????????????? no reaction occurs, already at maximum potencial(sp)??????????????? waiting for kenetic release,,,, current, amps, draw, load?????? where it come from???? key turn????????????



Man it's late

Yes, 79, you are right! I was talking about lead acid batteries in the above post. I haven't studied the newer battery technology yet, it was covered when I went to school at Florida Community College of Jacksonville yet. I only wanted to point out that a 12 volt battery that is reading only 6 volts (unloaded) has a far worse condition than only being 1/2 charged. It would have to have dead cells (more than one). It would be completely unrecoverable and no amount of charging will bring it back.


You are dead on with the charging system. In fact most alternators built today have their internal voltage regulators set between 13.8 and 14.2 volts. I've even seen a few put out up to 14.5.

Just to clear a few things up,...A fully charged battery will read 12.6 volts or more. If it reads more, it has what is called a surface charge. When batteries are load tested, the surface charge should be bled off (by putting a load across the battery for about 15 - 20 seconds) to get the unloaded voltage down to 12.6 volts before testing begins. Many techs who test batteries skip this step. A fully discharged battery (unloaded) reads approx. 11.6 - 11.8 volts, not 6 volts as previously mentioned (unless it has a dead cell - in which case the battery is no good and will not be able to hold a charge). When a battery is charged, the electrolyte is Sulfuric acid (H2SO4) That's 2 parts Hydrogen, 1 part Sulfur and 4 parts Oxygen. The plates are made of sponge lead. As the battery discharges, a chemical reaction takes place and the sulfur combines with the sponge lead to create lead sulfate. The electrolyte changes properties and becomes a higher percentage of water (H2O). A fully discharged battery has the highest percentage of water vs. Sulfuric acid. This is why it freezes at a higher temperature. There is no chemical reaction going on in the battery to produce any heat unless it is being charged or discharged. Sulfuric acid has a lower freezing point than water. It should also be mentioned that the longer a battery remains in a discharged state, the harder it becomes to break the sulfur loose from the lead. Some of the sulfur will remain attached and the battery looses some of its capacity. This is what is referred to as "the battery is sulfated".   So when storing your battery for the winter, make sure it is fully charged.

Ahh yes... there are reactions going on in the battery when it's just sitting. I forgot about that part. The reactions give off heat, which would help keep the battery from freezing. If the battery is dead, no electro-chemical reactions, then no heat, then freeze...hmmmm

As for the size of the battery. It's only six months old or so. When it's obivous the battery doesn't have the ummph to get things moving, I'll replace it.

Jimbo, I thought by the year of the boat that it was a Ford starter, but then I thought that maybe you had a different style. My new PCM 350 uses a GM starter, but its mounted on the PCM bell housing adapter that adapts the engine to the trans. I persoally have never seen this, but Ive only been around older boats and dont know what year they went that route. The GM factory block still has the tapping/mount for a standard starter. I was concerned of maybe posting info that may not apply due to a different style. Oh yeah, where we are, it sometimes goes to -20 below zero and the vehicles crank over and start, so the batt cant be frozen. Im no chemist, but if the battery is dead, it will freeze. If its charged, it wont at that temp.

Jeff, I'm certainly not an expert on electrical systems, or engines for that matter. The starter is the Ford type, with one large cable connecting to it. In the PCM service book it mentions the starter relay and the starter soleniod (in the Ford section). It calls the thing under the cover that sticks out on the side of the starter the soleniod. Unless I got confussed. I always thought that was a capacitor to get things moving.
On second thought, I bet the current was going to ground at the relay because the problem at the key switch. It's like the key was always in the off position. This one really threw me for a loop.

Yee-haaa...
I crawled under the dash and the violet wire to the key switch had broken loose from the connector. I fixed that, bypassed the neutral safety switch, and replaced the 4 ga cable from the relay to the starter. It fired up!!!
By the way, trying the jumper cable directly to the battery doesn't work, I don't know why. I think it has something to do with the internal starter solenoid.
Anyway, it's running.

Hey JIMBO, have you had any luck yet?? Get it figured out??

I'll bite. Please be nice if I get it wrong. I think a half charged battery at 30F will perform better as colder temperatures really starts to effect performance (exponentially?).

Did I win?

Have you put a breaker bar on the Crankshaft pulley yet to make sure you haven't seized up the engine, possibly due to alignment issues when you reinstalled the transmission? Its much more likely a ground/starter/battery type issue but it would be good to rule out the unthinkable.

-Joe.

Your battery is way under sized get rid of it and get a battery that has atleast 650 ColdCrankingA{B]amps. The battery you have would work fine for a 4 cyl engine but will not get the job done for a v-8 especailly one with a ford starter. It may have enought juice to turn the starter but it will not spin fast enough or have the extra juice to feed the ignition.

Are you using a deep cycle battery? Is your battery rated at 650 CCA or better? If it is a deep cycle put it in your bass boat, if it is less than 650 CCA use it in something else and a get a good marine starting battery in either case, just .02.

Jumping the relay is never a really good idea you can short things in a hurry, And I'm assuming vince told you to connect both wires to the same post on the nautral safety switch to bypass it. And if you are only getting 12v at the battery then it's bad you should see at least 13-13.5 volts and around 14-14.5 when charging.

Damn, the battery, I bet ya'll are right. I didn't think about that. I bet the battery shorted out when the starter shorted out. The battery is only three months old, so I didn't think about it. I replaced the cables and greased them last year and they are still in good shape. I pulled the battery and will have the people test it today. Thanks for everybody's help.

...could it be your battery? Never overlook the obvious. A battery with a shorted cell can show 12V, but be unable to deliver any amperage to start the engine.

Still having issues...
I installed the new starter and a new relay for good measure. Turned the key and nothing. Bypassed the neutral switch, still nothing. Tried bypassing the solenoid with a screw driver. Got a tiny spark the first time but that was it.

Measured the voltage at the relay to ground...12V. Connected the hot side of the relay directly to the starter post via jumper cables, nothing. Removed the relay-to-starter cable and tried the same thing, still nothing. Moreover, I measured the voltage from the hot leg of the relay to ground with the jumper going to the starter and I got a crazy reading (-0.04 on a digital meter...who knows what that means). The voltage from the hot leg of the relay to the starter post (without the jumper) was 12V.

The only thing I can think of is the starter post is grounding out somewhere inside the starter. But, the jumper cable didn't heat up so I don't think there is much, if any current going to ground. I'm having a hard time believing this starter is bad as well. I'm stumped. Two bolts holding the starter to the bellhousing, a cable from the relay to the starter; is there anything I'm missing?

I'm getting tired of changing out starters (it's a real pain!). Any suggestions?