351 Windsor carb to EFI done

Your right of course Eddie,but in my defence I thought all that was mentioned was about when you go to sell. I'm just saying what happens if people don't do their homework and you know alot don't. Check the boat out and if it's a '72 with fuel injection you'd better find out whats going on

TX Foilhead wrote:    It's interesting from the standpoint of the person who understands and likes to tinker, but what happens for the next owner who may not feel the same way. I can see this being an issue when its time to sell.

Non issue with the average boater.You guy's would be a hard sell tho. If some one has gone thru the work of installing a system and has done it like it looks a quality job the next owner would not even remotely think it didn't come that way. I don't think anyone would go to the trouble and expense to put FI on claped out boat if you know what I mean. I would agree it would be a problem after the sale if something went wrong,but no more than finding the foam is all wet and the stringers are mush because no homework was done before the purchase.

Totally agree Roger!

skfitz wrote: I would go so far as to say that when the Megasquirt is plugged into the laptop, the laptop is an OBD tool. It allows you to see every input and output value any time you'd like -- in real time or in a data log. You would know, for instance, that something is wrong with the throttle position sensor when you see an erratic needle or, in my case, a static number as the value for % open when you are working the gas.

While true, you still need some specialized tools (laptop + software + appropriate harnessing) and intimate knowledge of how the system works in order to be able to troubleshoot. Which probably wouldnt work well for a subsequent owner. If they didnt want to learn the system themselves, theyre in trouble, as its unlikely they could bring it to a mechanic and plug it into a standard diagnostic tool to pull error codes. That was my point.

No doubt that by its very nature, EFI has a lot of advantages when it comes to capturing data and then manipulating it!

TRBenj wrote: Most non-original modifications wont be met with a positive reaction by potential buyers when it comes time to re-sell. Such an EFI set up will undoubtedly fall into this category- moreso because it has a serious and direct impact on how the boat functions (not just how it looks) should it malfunction. I know I would most likely be uncomfortable buying a boat so equipped without being very familiar with how it was put together. I would think most buyers would be even less excited about such a conversion. As far as electronic ignition conversion kits go, I for one, maintain that their cost/benefit doesnt outweigh the downsides they offer in an otherwise stock engine. That doesnt mean I (or anyone else who agrees with me) has a fear of technology in general... so that comment is a little silly. An EFI conversion is likely in my future... but dont count on my installing a standalone EI kit anytime soon. .

I agree and would be very leery about buying a boat that has been extensively converted with EFI.

TR,
Your's welcome, I'm glad I was able to help.

There is no question that programmable EFI is fairly specialized stuff and a lot of people are just plain afraid of it. I think that this has more to do with the fact that it is different more than it is complicated. It's really not all that bad once you understand the principals. I read somewhere once that if EFI and the carburettor were being developed at the same time the carb would probably have never reached the assembly line because it is too complicated. True or not, it makes a good story.

Modern OEM EFI systems, OBDII and later have very good methods for trouble shooting because the ECU programming is so sophisticated that it has various fall back positions and trouble codes that are set if something goes wrong. MS is a long way from that, but it does have some very good built in features.

For instance, if any sensor reports values which are over or under what would be considered to be "in range", MS assumes there is a fault with the sensor or external wiring and defaults to a relatively average value which is sort of a "limp home" mode. It doesn't set codes to tell you exactly what the problem is, but it has another couple of features which are almost as good if you are reasonably familiar with how it works.

First of all, when connected to a lap top and the tuning software, all real time engine parameters can be displayed on the screen. If the engine is running, but not running right, you can go through these parameters to find out what is amiss. Then there is data logging. This is a very powerful tool for tuning and troubleshooting. You just start a data log with a running engine and let it record all the parameters as the engine is under actual operating conditions. The size of the log is limited only by the memory available in your lap top. After the recording session you can play back the log in the comfort of your home and look for anomalies. I can't imagine tuning or troubleshooting with out it.

Unless someone is really plugged into to boats and their stock form I doubt you will need to remove the EFI. If it works it works. Most of my friends are shocked ski boats where primarily carburated throughout the 90's and wouldnt know the difference between multiport and TBI. So if you say oh ya the engines run good and it starts and runs someone will be willing to buy. Now I dont think you are going to be able to charge more (as with most modifications).

TX,
I forgot to mention that a far as reliability is concerned it's as good or better than any normal automotive type equipment. The Ford stuff is stock Ford stuff. I've got about 8 years and over 100,000 KM on Megasquirt in my daily driver and not one MS related break down. If MS does break all parts are available cheap and anyone with basic electronic skills can repair it. The most expensive component on the board is the processor which is about 30 clams from Digikey, if I recall.

I have detailed schematics and wiring diagrams for everything involved in the project as well as the source code for the firmware in Megasquirt. I have detailed description of operation for any features that aren't typical for standard MS operations, which are covered in the Megamanual

Having said that, if the prospective buyer has any reservations at all those facts probably won't influence his decision. It won't be for everyone, that is for sure.

TX,
You make a valid point and I almost didn't do the conversion because of the "re-sale" factor. In the end I went ahead with it because we intend to keep the boat for as many years as our health allows. Eventually though we will not be able to keep her in the manner to which she has become accustom and she will have to go up for sale. She will be offered for sale with the conversion in place, but nothing I have done cannot be undone. If the EFI is the only deal breaker I can remove it all and re-install the conventional set up. It would be a shame, but I expect that this will most likely be what will happen.

Something you might be intrested in from the ProTec is the sensor that went in the distributor hole. Parts aren't available anymore, but it was simple and not the part of the system that had the issues. There seem to be a handful of people here who make the switch every year so getting ahold of one or two shouldn't be an issue.

Something I've wondered about that hasn't been discussed yet is how reliable is all this stuff. It's interesting from the standpoint of the person who understands and likes to tinker, but what happens for the next owner who may not feel the same way. I can see this being an issue when its time to sell.

The 1993 PCM Manual in our Reference Section has some info on the Pro Tec.

I'm curious about this Protec ignition. Is there any information about it anywhere?

AD,
Interesting about the knock sensor. During all my automotive Ford research I never came up with anything that indicated the 351W ever had a knock sensor. The 300 and the 302 did, but not the 351W or the 460.

Having said that I did come up with one mention that there is a boss about mid way down the left side of the lower intake manifold that was for a knock sensor. The fact that the PCM EFI engines have them was news to me.

I believe the later versions of MS have provision for a knock sensor input and an option for closed loop ignition retard under knock condition. The problem with non OEM knock sensors is that they can be very engine specific, and placement can be very engine specific. Also the sensor signal needs conditioning to work at the right frequency and be able to filter out other noises.

I do have a knock sensor on my engines but no active feed back. It's just there as a tuning aid, but I treat any knock report with some skepticism. I use the "KnockSenseMS" units tuned for a 4" bore. They have to be "dialed in" with a sensetivity adjustment so you have to induce an audible ping and adjust the sensitivity to suit. That's pretty hard to do with det cans in a tight engine room and a couple of 351s running at full song.

Some people are OK with after market knock sensing but I think most tuners don't rely on them. As far as I'm concerned, if I can't hear it ping, it's not a real ping. The problem with that is that my hearing is not what it used to be. I had to employ the help of my daughter to assist me setting up the ignition on my engines. She is a young mother and they have bionic ears.

E4ODnut wrote: Fascinating! I always suspected that at least a certain amount of "generic" tuning would be possible between engines of relatively similar size and design. You've proven the theory.

I don't think that would work with spark, knock, etc. But for a straight air/fuel setup (even closed loop) I think it would work pretty well.

I installed my throttle body on a 350 in a Chevy truck and used the LC-1 wide band oxygen sensor signal to tune for 13.7-14.2 under any load at all and lean at idle. I tuned a lot. I assumed (correctly, it turns out) that the extra square inch of combustion chamber and specific engine mechanics wouldn't be terribly different when I transferred it to the 351. On the boat I set up the engine specific tables (like warm up enrichments and idle control for an engine that is fully warm at 150 degrees !!!).   

Hi Robert,

I didn't mean to thread hijack. You are explaining the concepts exceptionally well, so I'll step back after answering your questions.

So, I drive an old Landcruiser with full-on fuel, air (MAF), spark, and timing control using MSExtra code. I had it running on Megasquirt I(!) way back in 2003. But that's another story...

My boat is a 1975 Ski with a 351w originally marinized by a company called Escort (thanks to ccfan for that information). It runs stock (Mallory) centrifugal advance distributor and an optic trigger ignition. Fuel and air are controlled by Megasquirt. Because it's fuel only, it essentially runs like a very well-tuned carb, but one that starts every time I crank it, does not get out of tune, and will run as well at Blue Mesa Reservoir in Colorado as it does at sea level.

Is that a GM throttle body set-up? Yes. They flat out work, and as you can see in the pics above, it makes for an easy harness because everything is close together.

If so, what manifold are you using? Edelbrock Performer 2181. So how does a GM throttle body fit? There's an adapter plate to make the GM TBI work on anything, even Fords. lol.

... they run on lower fuel pressure than the Ford port injection does. What fuel pump do you use and is it return to tank or something else? I would have stayed away from this had you not asked because the FP (unlike the wiring and lines) is not marine. Bosch in-line from a 1987(?) Ford Econoline. Pump is relatively high pressure, but you are correct about the TBI being a lower pressure unit. It returns all fuel over 13#psi back to the tank in the return line.

What version board and firmware do you use? MSII v3.0 Board for sure. Firmware is 2.89xx. Not really sure b/c boat's not here and I can't go plug it in and check...

How about tuning software? TunerStudioMS 2.0.6

How about O2 sensor, how did you handle that and do you run open or closed loop? No O2. Open loop.      

What's your normal cruise RPM? Either just above idle or at wakeboard speed, which with whatever prop I have is about 2200-2300.

Any significant differences in power, economy or just plain manners? Like I mentioned earlier, it starts and runs reliably. I don't use the boat much, but it fires within a rotation every time I turn the key, whether it's been sitting for 3 months or we just landed a skier from the water. With the xtau accel, it delivers power smoothly and solidly. I think it does better on fuel than it did with that POS Holley carb (I hate carbs, especially that Holley), but I didn't do before and after tests so I'm not sure. Exhaust doesn't stink as much, and I rarely smell fuel when I lift the dog house.

Now carry on b/c I'm enjoying reading your stuff!