2002 ski nautique |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11112 |
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Posted: May-07-2021 at 12:40pm |
No recap necessary now I guess
That's why pulling the tube is the best approach Another group effort, hope it all works with the new tube, I think you'll be good, but maybe consider changing the hose between the anti siphon valve and the LP pump to a new A1-15 or A1-10 USCG approved marine hose while you're working on things.
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Skier4life04@gmail.c
Groupie Joined: March-28-2021 Location: TN Status: Offline Points: 61 |
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You were right, the plastic pick up tube dry rotted and broke completely off... I have one ordered, should be here in 6 to 8 days... thanks everyone, I will keep you posted.
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11112 |
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It seems to me that he's run the boat with an outboard tank plumbed up to the LP pump and it ran fine and then hooked up to the tank again and it didn't run.
I don't see anywhere that you've unscrewed the fuel suction/pickup line from the tank.(Put a wrench on the big nut to hold it stationary and then unscrew the 90 degree fitting from that) Then you'll have the line in your hand and be able to see if the suction inside the tank is plugged or maybe broken off, split, cracked above the fuel level like Gordon mentioned above. I think it's time for a recap of what's been done all in one post mentioning things like the anti siphon valve, the line to the LP pump, the suction line in the tank. And maybe Gordon should just give you his volume numbers or the page(s) in the manual if he wants you to do a volume check on that pump that seems to have run fine when you ran the engine for quite a while hooked to the outboard tank.
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slmskrs
Gold Member Joined: January-03-2012 Location: SF bay area, CA Status: Offline Points: 522 |
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So, it sounds like you have confirmed there is no obstruction from the hose at the top of the tank to the low pressure pump, correct? How did you confirm it? If that's the case, you could disconnect the hose from the tank, put it in a can of gas, then turn your low pressure pump on and and check fuel flow (volume x time as noted in the manual). Just because you feel some suction at the pump doesn't mean it's not internally bleeding (worn valves/diaphragm) and therefore won't pull anything but air. If you still couldn't blow air, then as you said, you've got a blockage in the tank (I'd suggest removing the gas cap to give the air a bigger way to exhaust than the vent). If you've confirmed the pump will pull the correct amount of gas (volume test using a can of gas), but won't pull out of the tank (and you are able to blow air into the tank with the check valve removed), then you probably have a leak problem. I don't know if the pick up line in the tank is rigid (metal) or a hose. If it is a hose, then it could have cracked, and caused air to get sucked in. Or it could be a leak in the hose at at the top of the tank where it is always exposed to air (unless filled almost to overflowing). If it is a metal pick up tube, then it's possible a crack developed near the top that lets air in.
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Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40
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Skier4life04@gmail.c
Groupie Joined: March-28-2021 Location: TN Status: Offline Points: 61 |
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Is there anything in the tank at the end of the suction line past the spring and ball deal? Bc I am 100% certain something is stopped up in there, not letting fuel come up.
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Skier4life04@gmail.c
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They have been, I cleaned everything on the tank end, it all seemed to be working properly but low pressure still won't pull from the tank. I have a new one on its way just incase. I just can't figure out why it won't pull, doesn't make sense to me.
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3749 |
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Glad you are making progress. Something to remember when working with electric fuel pumps, they are fuel lubricated and fail very quickly when run without fuel flowing. Carter Fuel used to state damage can happen in 15 seconds dry run time with electric pumps. With all these trial starts your pumps may have been exposed to dry run time. Hope they are ok.
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slmskrs
Gold Member Joined: January-03-2012 Location: SF bay area, CA Status: Offline Points: 522 |
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Sorry, looks like a lot of what I wrote got posted just before I did.
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Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40
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slmskrs
Gold Member Joined: January-03-2012 Location: SF bay area, CA Status: Offline Points: 522 |
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My low pressure pump failed, but not dramatically. It started to stall out. I pulled the output hose and confirmed it was flowing (I could even hear gas in the tank splashing as it returned to the tank. However, when I did the volume test, it was low. Put a new pump in and it solved the problem. Can you hear gas splashing back into the tank with the low pressure pump on? Sorry I can't give credit (couldn't find the post), but someone mentioned earlier to check the screen in the pick up line at the top of the tank. I had this problem in my '96. It got plugged, and I had tried and tested everything I could with no luck. A West Coast Nautique service person suggested I check it before taking it in (didn't know there was one). It was almost completely plugged. Since your boat sat for so long, it could be covered in varnish, etc. You've already proved that the high pressure pump works and the engine will run with gas in the canister. I would: 1. turn the low pressure pump on, go to the tank and listened to see if you hear gas flowing, I assume not since if it's flowing back to the tank, it means it's also filling the canister. If it's not flowing, you've got a blockage or a bad pump. 2. Check the flow from the tank to the low pressure pump. I'd probably run some compressed air from the input side of the hose to the pump and see if you can get air bubbles in the tank. If so, then you have some sort of flow. If not, check the screen (it's at the top of the tank; part of the fitting that the line from the tank to the pump connects to the tank. It's a small round metal mesh (my son (young at the time) was able to get his fingers in to pull it out; it was very plugged). If you do that, check again to see if you can blow air through it. If you have an inline gas filter, replace it. There should be no restriction in that line. 3. Connect the input hose back to the pump, disconnect the output hose where it connects to the canister, put it in a container, and measure the gas output (don't recall what it's supposed to be; in the service manual). Visually my old one was fine, but it really wasn't. If it's on the low side, replace it. 4. Check the return hose from the output from the canister (not to the injectors, but the large hose that returns gas to the tank). Run compressed air to see if there are any blockages. Since you confirmed the high pressure pump works and the engine runs, if you follow the above, you should hear gas splashing back into the tank from the return, which means the canister is full of gas and you should be good to go.
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Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11112 |
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If you blew from the end of the hose the ball in the anti siphon valve would stop any air flow into the tank
You need to take off the anti siphon valve and like in the picture depress the ball against spring pressure to be sure it unseats and the spring pushes it back shut again when you quit depressing the ball. It doesn't take much force at all to depress the ball.. The valve is screwed into a 90 degree fitting at the top of the tank suction line and looks just like a hose barbed fitting except it has the ball and spring mentioned earlier. The fuel line to the pump is hose clamped to it. The 90 unscrews from the big flat nut to get the suction line out. While the valve is removed, blow some air into the tank. |
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Skier4life04@gmail.c
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I couldn't figure out how to get the line out of the tank... it is kinda set up like a aftermarket switch, how you drill a hole, put the switch in from the back, and a nut holds it in place from the top... I took that nut off but the hose still didn't move... can I get in there if I remove the sending unit? I already blew air in from the end of the hose toward the tank, but I was alone and couldn't hear if it was bubbling in there or not.
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11112 |
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I'd probably just continue in this thread.
I'd probably also pull the line from the tank to the pump and make sure it's not internally collapsed, pull the antisiphon valve and make sure it's not plugged up and is easy to depress the ball against the spring, and either remove the suction line inside the tank or blow some air backwards through it, in case the strainer at the end of the line is plugged. The line may have fallen apart or come off too It's better to remove the line inspect it and clean the strainer, but if you blow it out, it'll probably take a long time to plug itself again. As long as there are 15 gallons in the tank, the gauge reading won't matter to the pumps. Might be new gauge and or sending unit time but it's for sure troubleshooting time before you buy new stuff.
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Skier4life04@gmail.c
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Both pumps are working, I ran the boat from a 5 gallon tank, it continued running 15 minutes after the tank was empty. After the tank emptied I hooked up the main fuel supply line while the boat was still running and it ran out of gas. Also my gas Guage is stuck on "E", even though there is at least 15 gallons in it. Could that affect anything? Should I start a new thread? Or just continue on this one? There is a ton of information here.
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11112 |
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Electric part would be the fuel level sending unit and you'd have a suction line, return line from the fuel pressure regulator and a bigger vent/ overflow line.
As a test I'd probably disconnect the suction from the LP fuel pump and hook up a clear line going to a small temporary tank and see if the pump sucks gas into it and the boat will run and start like that. A portable gas can with a hose stuck in it, or an outboard motor fuel tank would be good. Make sure it's vented so the pump doesn't draw a vacuum in the tank. If the pump is sucking, you'll see the fuel flowing and fuel pressure will be normal since it takes 2 pumps working together to get that 40 ish psi That'll help you decide if it's a pump problem or a fuel hose/tank issue.
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Skier4life04@gmail.c
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I thought it was over too, but apparently when I pulled the HP canister off, cleaned it, and filled cannister with gas it ran... until that HP canister ran out of fuel. I can see 3 lines and an electric part going in to the top of the tank through the trunk. Cant figure out how to pull them out of the tank though? This boat is becoming a big headache.
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11112 |
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I'm a little groggy this morning, so I'm a little confused too The quote above makes it sound like you found the problem and it's the end of the thread If you cleaned the injectors and the engine runs like you said above and it has roughly 40 psi fuel pressure, why are you thinking the LP pump needs replacing. The only way to get 40 psi is with both pumps running. There must be more to the story. If the pump runs and it isn't sucking from the tank, maybe you should start with checking the anti siphon valve( and the hose/strainer in the tank) to make sure it works and lets gas through it when the pump is sucking.
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Since yours was sitting for awhile and the injectors clogged you could try taking it apart and see if you can fix it not really complicated,those little vanes get stuck in their grooves,here is the service bulletin-
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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If you want the oem plug your looking for Deutsch DT04-2P usually comes with the other end as well DT06-2P like this on ebay- 263238868932
or amazon- https://www.amazon.com/uxcell-Deutsch-DT04-2P-Electric-Connector/dp/B00WW55ECA
Here is my setup with the 4389- |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Well you could or you could just hard wire it-thats what my dealer did on my 95. Let me find the number on the plug you can probably order one when you order the pump. That way it would look factory if you want.
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Skier4life04@gmail.c
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Do the pumps need to be full of gas for it to pull from tank?
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Skier4life04@gmail.c
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I? Old one is working, for some reason it's not pulling gas from the tank, but when I kick it on with the hose unhooked I can feel it sucking.
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Skier4life04@gmail.c
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I can just wire my old plug to the new pump, cant i?
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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P 4389 might be a better choice but it has no plug, I’ll have to look but somewhere I have the plugs part number as well. I have one on a gt40 but it has not been run yet
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Skier4life04@gmail.c
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The part number for the Carter pump is P4594.
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Skier4life04@gmail.c
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Quick question, can I use the Napa fuel pump thats like 60 bucks or do I have to buy the 260 dollar one from nautique? There is a Carter fuel pump on Amazon that looks familiar for like 56, just want to know if anyone has tried it for the low side pump.
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Skier4life04@gmail.c
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Thanks for all your help, I would have spent a fortune at a shop!
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11112 |
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Hey, why don't you take the injectors out and clean them and see if it starts
Somebody has to say good job, so I will. If you had 40 psi and no gas getting to the engine, it makes sense that they were plugged, it also says that both pumps are good.
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Skier4life04@gmail.c
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Ok, so while I was waiting for some direction on here, I took the injectors out and cleaned them and it runs now... thank you everyone for all your help... I hope this thread helps others.
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Skier4life04@gmail.c
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Ok, so I have replaced cap and rotor, and plugs. Im getting 39-40 PSI from Schrader valve, getting spark, and still this thing won't fire. Not really sure what else to check. I pulled the HP pump filter off and there was only a little gas in the bottom of it, so I cleaned it out and filled it with gas, then put it back on, thats when I got 40 psi... you think the LP pump is bad even though I can feel it running? That is what fills the HP correct? Even if it was bad, shouldn't the motor have at least fired until the HP ran out of fuel?
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11112 |
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Here are some numbers that can be cross referenced to different brands Cap Motorcraft DH411B, you fill the vent hole with silicone to be like the original "marine" cap Rotor Motorcraft DR374B Plugs Autolite 764 or Autolite 104. The 104 is a full threaded version of the 764 which is supposedly discontinued, but can still be found. They both work equally well Plug wires from SkiDim RK120015A or people have made their own from universal kits. SkiDim also sells a cap and rotor kit RP173082
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