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1989 351W Engine Knock |
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Greg_SA 
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 Topic: 1989 351W Engine KnockPosted: October-30-2024 at 1:58pm |
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I think the engine ran really well. Idled smooth and sounded just like my previous 351w. I think I'm gong to try check that the valve geometry is okay - 90 degrees at mid position of valve. Then fire it up. I'll run it for a day, then remove the valve covers see if anything looks suspicious (metal filings, etc). Might also do an oil change and check the oil, cut open the oil filter and inspect.
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1989 Ski Nautique (SN2001)
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KENO
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Posted: October-30-2024 at 7:11am |
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Sounds like you could be going down a rabbit hole here
It could be a deep one or a shallow one  Since you have the engine, got through some problems getting it together and knew how it ran before the issue, I'd say using your judgement on what to do is the best thing
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Greg_SA
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Posted: October-29-2024 at 2:49pm |
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Thanks Guys. Unfortunately, I don't have much history on this engine's rebuild. I bought it from a machine shop that fitted my marine hardware. Apparently the shop was involved in the rebuild of the bottom end. The shop told me the head was not rebuilt as it was 100%. The engine was used for about a year by a client (after"rebuild") and the client wanted to swap to a higher performance engine and sold it (to me). This is the same shop that said the timing was 100%, when it had a 302 cam and the timing setup for a 351, and also did not have an eccentric properly installed to drive my mechanical fuel pump, even when I explicitly asked. So I really don't have much faith in anything they say. So, as far as I am concerned, everything about the engine is "unknown". The few days that it ran, it was running great though.
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1989 Ski Nautique (SN2001)
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TRBenj
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Posted: October-29-2024 at 2:04pm |
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Tom is right, checking to make sure that your rocker arm is at 90 degrees when the valve is at half lift is the best way to check geometry. You won’t learn nearly as much by checking the pattern on top of the valve stem.
The springs have a specific height (“installed height”) at which they are supposed to be installed. I’d be confirming that your machinist set them up correctly. I’m not getting the warm and fuzzies based on what you’ve shared. |
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MrMcD
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Posted: October-29-2024 at 12:05pm |
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Place machinest blue on the valve tip assemble the rocker arm and rotate the engine. Best case the rocker arm to valve tip contact mark will be very close to center. It will move a little side to side but you do not want contact on one side or the other. Centered is correct. The only adjustment is longer or shorter push rods.
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Fl Inboards
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Posted: October-29-2024 at 9:51am |
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this is a rebuilt engine and has run through a machine shop? i would wonder how much surface was milled off if the block was decked and the heads re-surfaced?? |
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Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.
1993 Shamrock "fat" 20. 2008 Nautique 196 5.0 |
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GottaSki
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Posted: October-29-2024 at 9:02am |
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get adjustable pushrod tool and some checking springs
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
River Rat to Mole |
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GottaSki
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Posted: October-29-2024 at 9:02am |
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middle is overrated, one wants to minimize the contact width of the sliding action
happens when rocker contacts points are squared up at mid lift
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
River Rat to Mole |
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Greg_SA
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Posted: October-29-2024 at 12:37am |
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Thanks Guys. Does anyone have a guide of how to check the geometry? I saw a video which showed: - Top of the valve stem is colored with a permanent marker - Rocker installed - Turn motor - Check that the wear on the valve stem is in the center? Is that good enough?
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1989 Ski Nautique (SN2001)
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GottaSki
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Posted: October-28-2024 at 10:29am |
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If the new stud was pressed back in, i give it 5% staying in.
I concur, geometry has to be checked. in early picture it looked like the valve stem was mushrooming over. aiming 90 degree at mid lift would be best
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
River Rat to Mole |
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MrMcD
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Posted: October-28-2024 at 1:01am |
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Well dang, thought we had an easy answer. Still does not explain why his fulcrums show wear on the top side. They look like they have been moving around? Hope he figures it out.
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KENO
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Posted: October-27-2024 at 7:36pm |
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Here's a picture of a stud like Greg has
It's 3/8 at the bottom where it presses in and the threaded part is 5/16. Greg has already mentioned that. That's what his other 15 are like. You tighten the nut down to the end of the threads and the fulcrum with the 3/8 hole fits on the 3/8 part of the stud....no slop  |
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MrMcD
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Posted: October-27-2024 at 1:18pm |
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I think I see the issue. The fulcrum in your photo listed several posts back shows the bolt hole in the fulcrum is much larger than the stud. I think this is allowing movement of the the fulcrum while running leaving all the marks on your existing fulcrums. I was wondering why they had those marks, you just don't see those on the top of the fulcrum. Check that out. If they do not fit correctly you will have more problems. Fix that and you should be good to go. Running it like this again will probably show the same result again.
The fulcrum fits snug, they will slip up and down but no side to side movement once on the stud. Look at your new stud size compared to the studs in your head currently. The new stud is larger diameter.  |
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Greg_SA
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Posted: October-27-2024 at 11:07am |
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Could the "skew" valve spring shims cause extra wear on the valve guides? When I cleaned the heads, there was some very fine metal "grit" in some old oil "sludge". Not shiny, but magnetic. The thin (new) oil was clean.
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1989 Ski Nautique (SN2001)
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Greg_SA
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Posted: October-27-2024 at 10:55am |
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Thanks Guys. The fulcrums (half sphere pivots) have circular marks on all of them. There are no extra washers on top. MrMcD - when you say: "Those should see nothing touching them once adjustment is done." Doesn't the nut rest on top of those fulcrums? Here is another photo (found online) of similar heads with similar marks.  Is there an easy way to check the valve train geometry? TRBenj - "Double checking the installed height" - what does that mean? If this doesn't work out, I'll definitely fit the old '89 heads.Maybe I should send them to a machine shop now to be cleaned up, to prepare for any future issues?
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1989 Ski Nautique (SN2001)
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KENO
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Posted: October-27-2024 at 7:37am |
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I figure that you're this far along, you might as well finish with your adjustment procedure and run it, since you said the boat was running great before the stud broke.
I also figure that if you have any more valve train issues or if you're having big doubts about the assembly of these heads right now, then it's time to put your good set of 89 heads on it
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MrMcD
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Posted: October-26-2024 at 1:07pm |
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The adjustment technique mentioned above should work. Since it already ran with the lifters you really do not know where they were adjusted to before. I would certainly not adjust more than 1/2 turn.
Tim is correct your washers//fulcrums under the rocker arm nut look very strange as did the one pictured early in this thread. Those should see nothing touching them once adjustment is done. Why do they have the odd marks on the top of the fulcrum? I also noticed that every valve spring has the shims under them. That is odd, it is normal to find some springs that need a shim on rebuild but never every spring? I hope you get it fired up and running well soon.
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TRBenj
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Posted: October-26-2024 at 12:02pm |
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Those washers don’t look right. And some sitting on top of plugs, not flat… sure looks like a red flag. I’d question the geometry at least, and be double checking the installed height and everything else. Doesn’t seem like a coincidence with a broken stud in the mix.
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Greg_SA
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Posted: October-26-2024 at 8:36am |
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I don't see any signs of the valve spring coils binding. So I have managed to pull the broken stud and fit the "donor" stud. This is not a positive stop stud.  Now busy reinstalling the rocker, and setting the valve lash - only for cylinder 8, exhaust. Is it as simple as: - Turn engine/crank by hand till intake #8 valve opens, then stop when it starts to close - At this point #8 exhaust valve will be closed - Tighten the rocker nut very slowly, while wiggling the pushrod up/down - When the play is gone, that is 0 lash. - Tighten another ~ 1/2 turn to preload |
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1989 Ski Nautique (SN2001)
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MrMcD
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Posted: October-15-2024 at 3:11pm |
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Jodi, I have seen you help with many subjects many times. I guess I have not witnessed the dis respect you mentioned but I do not read every post listed.
Your help is always welcome and appreciated as far as I know. I agree this engine repair would be very simple in the United States but this poor guy is trying to fix it in South Africa where they do not have access to stuff we consider common. Mark
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Fl Inboards
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Posted: October-15-2024 at 12:55pm |
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Little touchy there?
It's OK for you to pop in every once in a while, throw out some info and disappear I guess. Kinda like in this thread. Then when Jody speaks and something gets added by me, it's time to get upset. "Look back in this thread, did I jump right in with something after you recommended a leakdown test? Some
of us stick with a thread helping somebody actually get their problem
resolved instead of one or two comments and poof, you're gone. Now
as far as getting a life, mine's just fine, with some time available to
help out here on CCF since I'm semi old and retired and don't mind
passing on some of what I might know. Plenty of other things to keep me
busy too." Poof! i am gone! i wonder in a day of talking to nautiqueparts.com as well as dim.com customers you take the time to reference Correctcraftfan.com for information? lets see well you do not!! usually in daily correspondence this site gets referenced and even workable links for information passed on to correct craft customers. I do it , Woody also, so? PooF!!! Gone!!
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Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.
1993 Shamrock "fat" 20. 2008 Nautique 196 5.0 |
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Greg_SA
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Posted: October-15-2024 at 1:23am |
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Thanks, I'll have a look.
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1989 Ski Nautique (SN2001)
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MrMcD
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Posted: October-14-2024 at 1:51pm |
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When rebuilding heads shops will re use the valve springs unless the customer steps up and requests new valve springs. When they do this they check the springs to make sure they meet the proper requirements. Maybe the spec says 70 ft pounds at the seat, valve closed and 240 ft pounds with the valve fully open. If a spring comes up short and does not meet spec they add shims under the spring making it stiffer and adding the pounds needed to meet spec. Most times this is perfectly acceptable to repair used heads. If the shims are too thick or a cam is used that adds lift the spring can coil bind, the coils are compressed till they touch which would put lots of stress on the push rod and rocker arm. If the spring coil binds it will leave witness marks where the coils touch. You can look for them.
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Greg_SA
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Posted: October-14-2024 at 12:59pm |
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Thanks Keno. I'll give it a try. One thing I noticed is that the "washers" at the bottom of the valve springs don't look stock. 2 have been trimmed to fit? And some of the others don't fit 100% flat. Ever seen this before? Could it be a problem?   |
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1989 Ski Nautique (SN2001)
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KENO
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Posted: October-13-2024 at 3:28pm |
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I don't see why you couldn't use that stud from the 302, it's worth a try to get you going again.
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Greg_SA
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Posted: October-13-2024 at 7:35am |
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Thanks Guys. I really appreciate everyone's input. Keno has been deeply involved, so has the most background with regards to my engine woes  The pushrod is perfectly straight. I
was hoping to repair the broken stud without removing the heads. I'd
like to use the boat ASAP. To do this, I just need a replacement stud
(stock pressfit or some aftermarket threaded stud, and tap the hole). Is
this a bad idea? I have a mobile stud removal guy that can assist. I
just can't find a new replacement stud. I can only get a set of 16, that
need a thread to be tapped in the head. I am waiting for more information from a local supplier. Maybe the broken stud was over torqued? Or just metal fatigue? Can I test the value to make sure it isn't "stuck"? A friend pulled this stud from his 302. Could I use it? Same 3/8 pressfit shaft but with 3/8 thread for the rocker nut (it seems like a locking nut). Mine has a 5/16 thread, with the taper (positive stop).  I wasn't happy with the shop that I used previously. They didn't even know that the engine had a 302 cam, and insisted that the timing was 100%! |
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1989 Ski Nautique (SN2001)
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KENO
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Posted: October-12-2024 at 7:58pm |
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Little touchy there?
It's OK for you to pop in every once in a while, throw out some info and disappear I guess. Kinda like in this thread. Then when Jody speaks and something gets added by me, it's time to get upset. Look back in this thread, did I jump right in with something after you recommended a leakdown test? Some of us stick with a thread helping somebody actually get their problem resolved instead of one or two comments and poof, you're gone. Now as far as getting a life, mine's just fine, with some time available to help out here on CCF since I'm semi old and retired and don't mind passing on some of what I might know. Plenty of other things to keep me busy too. |
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Fl Inboards
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Posted: October-12-2024 at 2:42pm |
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You must have been that kid growing that got his book bag thrown in the ditch everyday! Your going to comment on every one of my posts?? your annoying for sure, are you the owner of this web site? I see when some one else comments on this site your "ALWAYS" there!! get a life dude your not the only person in the world that has some info to share..
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Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.
1993 Shamrock "fat" 20. 2008 Nautique 196 5.0 |
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KENO
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Posted: October-12-2024 at 8:36am |
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Maybe you missed the part about it having come from a machine shop.
All he wants to do is replace one rocker arm stud without tearing things apart. Even us backyard hack "hobbyist" types can handle that with a little skill and expertise
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Fl Inboards
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Posted: October-11-2024 at 12:29pm |
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https://cylinderexchange.co.za/contact-us/ https://cylinderexchange.co.za/cylinder-head-reconditioning/ |
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Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.
1993 Shamrock "fat" 20. 2008 Nautique 196 5.0 |
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