Tow capacity help... |
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quik225
Groupie Joined: April-03-2011 Location: Eustis FL Status: Offline Points: 57 |
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Yes it will be in 1st, but with many transmissions, the advantage to using 1 or L instead of D when pulling up the ramp is the reverse band is applied for extra holding power. |
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bkhallpass
Grand Poobah Joined: March-29-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4723 |
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I also disagree that a stick/manual is "better." It may or may not offer more power, but the fact is most people don't drive them well while parked on a steep, wet slippery incline. I watch people fry clutches almost every weekend.
Automatic is pretty brain dead. Even if I had to back the truck into the water, I can usually trust most anyone to put in in gear and drive out. BKH |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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4x4's towing weight is usually lower because the of the added weight of the 4wd,gross vehicle weight I think is the same.Automatics help pull because of the torque mulitplication of the converter.
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3241 |
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I agree that automatics work very well on traditional towing vehicles and I would prefer to have one if that is what I was interested in. Be sure it has a cooler. An automatic on my teeny weeny towing truckster, or anything like it, would last about 5 minutes.
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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bkhallpass
Grand Poobah Joined: March-29-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4723 |
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All the time. Not sure why the Ranger would be any worse than light trucks from Chevy, Toyota, or Nissan, but it sure seems like the Ranger is the worst for spinning the rear wheels. BKH |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Cecil, Could you expound on this statement? I'm not sure what you mean. |
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oledb4
Senior Member Joined: December-06-2011 Location: Orlando, FL Status: Offline Points: 122 |
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do you know why 4x4 has lower towing capacity?? And, not to be a prick, but I understand that a 4x4 offers you 4 wheels powered at the ramp, but how do you think a 4x4 manual transmission would handle pulling boat out of luanch?? especially considering the boat is either at, or most likely above, the towing capacity |
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ononewheel
Gold Member Joined: June-21-2011 Location: B Status: Offline Points: 776 |
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I used to tow my quite heavy Excel with a 4x4 manual F150, with a 4.6.
I almost always pulled out of the launch in 4 low. I HAD to because of slipping the clutch. A ranger won't be any better unless you have some nice ramps compared to what we have here. If you buy a Ranger with a manual and 4x4, you should be able to get the boat out, but towing and stopping is another matter. Especially if you are launching the boat 4 times a week, that will take it's toll. You might be replacing brakes often if you do not have trailer brakes. I had surge brakes on my trailer, and I think the combination of surge brakes and a manual caused the truck to destroy u-joints pretty quick. |
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bkhallpass
Grand Poobah Joined: March-29-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4723 |
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Traction is the name of the game at the ramp. It really takes very little power. Many marinas use small jeeps or tractors just to pull the boats out of water and pull around the yard at 4 or 5 miles per hour.
I had a friend who used to pull his 17 foot Bayliner out of the water with a Ford Escort. Sometimes, on a slick ramp, three or four of us would have to sit on the back of the car to get traction. The little four cylinder had no problem pulling the boat out of the water. It was all about traction. The Europeans use very small cars all the time. Obviously, 4 wheel drive can assist with traction. Presumably, the front wheels never get down into the water, or onto the slick part of the ramp. I'm no expert, but if I were going to have a manual transmission, I'd rather have the 4 wheel than the two wheel drive. This is only because when the tires start spinning most people just keep trying and smoke the clutch. At least with the 4 wheel, the front wheels should pull not break loose . If all 4 are spinning, you really have a problem like the video posted above of the guys trying to launch in the ocean. I see no advantage in a manual transmission when it comes to towing a recreational ski boat. Once out on the highway, different story than on the ramp. First, there is the matter of stopping. It's pretty simple - smaller cars have a harder time stopping big boats than do bigger cars. You can augment your stopping capability with trailer brakes, and some cars have bigger/better brakes than others. There is still nothing like weight to slow down a moving boat. Also in high winds, smaller cars will get whipped a lot easier than bigger cars. If you are only towing a few miles, and don't need to go fast, then perhaps this is not an issue. Then, you have the matter of the transmission. Even if the engine can pull the boat down the road at 50 or 60 miles and hour, the transmission on a small car is probably going to be working hard. You can ease the pain on the transmission by installing a transmission cooler. But, again, big beefy transmissions, with big beefy parts are better for towing than small transmissions. It just is, what it is. If you tow only a few miles, on flat terrain, that may not be an issue either. Engines are similar. Lots of engines will do the job. How hard they have to work, and how long they will last doing that job is another story. In terms of tow rating, you also have to consider the suspension. The car may have plenty of power, but if the ass end of the car is dragging, you're going to have a bad tow experience. Again, you can build up the suspension, or add air shocks or other lifting devices. At some point you have to ask, is it worth it? By the time you buy a light duty truck and beef everything up, you could have bought a hell of a lot of gas. So you see, you ask a simple question, with dozens of possible answers. How much is enough truck? depends up on your tow terrain, launch ramp, experience, skills, budget, appetite for repairs, etc. etc. etc. When I bought my first Ski Nautique, I was commuting 160 miles per day, and needed a new car. I could not afford two new cars, and couldn't afford to drive a 13 mpg truck back and forth. So, the answer was a new Honda Accord, and $500 68 Ford pickup. That pickup was my primary tow vehicle for over 4 years (and the primary dump vehicle for every one of my neighbors). Was ugly, but it towed just fine. BKH |
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3241 |
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Maybe that was why you had a lot of trouble ay the ramp. The Ford Escort was a front wheel drive car. Applying weight to the rear bumper would reduce the weight on the drive wheels. I find my Ion does quite well on improved ramps, just like most front wheel drive cars. The additional distance from the water to the drive wheels frequently keeps them clear of the sand and gravel that accumulate near the water line. Sometimes the ramp is even dry where the front wheels are positioned. I did quite a bit of towing with small cars over the years, here with a fully equipped Southcoast 22' sailboat, complete with ballast and a steel swing keel, and all rigging and equipment. This photo was in 1978 leaving for a day of boating on the Chicago Ocean (Lake Michigan) where we did most of our boating. |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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TX Foilhead
Grand Poobah Joined: February-01-2009 Location: Kingsland TX Status: Offline Points: 2076 |
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The advantage to the manual tranny is control, sure you have to know how to use it but it allows you to get everything out of the tow vehicle. I'm sure its an aquired taste, but I've done it with trucks up to 2 1/2 tons and I'll take the manual everytime its offered. I found the 2nd gear launches up the ramp in 4 lo to be perfect, one foot on the brake the other on the clutch and I didn't have to touch the gas until it was moving. 1st was too much and caused wheel spin and bouncing and 3rd bogged momentarily.
I don't know if first on an auto causes anything different to happen, I always use 2 which I've heard Ford designed for towing on slippery surfaces. I don't know, but it works and doesn't spin at my ramp. |
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malibud
Gold Member Joined: July-08-2009 Location: north carolina Status: Offline Points: 613 |
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So i am no expert but from experience you are better off with a manual tranny . 1. I have burned up 2 tturbo 350 trans towing in the mountains. 2. In a pinch you can always down shift to slow down. 3. If autos were better wouldn't the semi trucks be using them... Just my 2 cents...
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3241 |
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Semi trucks have been using them for years, but they are expensive and not popular with fleet operators for that reason. DENTON, Texas (September 9, 2004) – Drivetrain combinations of Allison automatic transmissions and all heavy-duty Cummins and Caterpillar engines are now available Peterbilt Motors Company recently announced. “The new combinations provide customers with a greater range of horsepower and torque ratings with the fuel efficiency and operating convenience of an automatic transmission,” says Bruce Ewald, Peterbilt Assistant General Manager of Sales and Marketing. “Increasingly, customers from both vocational and over-the-road markets are spec’ing automatic transmissions, and this expanded lineup of compatible engine options will hold even greater appeal.” 3.? If tug boats pull the hardest, wouldn't they be the perfect ski boats? I'm just having fun. I like manual trans for towing, but it's not for everyone. |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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bkhallpass
Grand Poobah Joined: March-29-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4723 |
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johnb. Don't I feel dumb. We may well have sat on the front of the car. Hell, maybe we did sit on the back of the car. Was 25 years ago, and a lot of drinking went on. Point remains, doesn't take a hell of a lot of power to get a boat out. What I do remember clearly is that he drilled a hole in the bumper, and stuck a ball in it. Did not even have a real hitch.
BKH P.S. Did Ford have another small care started with and E? Probably not. Oh well. |
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Livin' the Dream
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malibud
Gold Member Joined: July-08-2009 Location: north carolina Status: Offline Points: 613 |
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Very interesting on the tranny. but with a small truck wouldn,t the tranny burn up quicker with and auto than a stick... I think the tug boat would have a terrible wake and not enough cup holders...
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3241 |
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I am sorry if you thought I was being a smart alek. I didn't mean you weren't doing it right at the time. One thing about my sense of humor, it is assuredly offbeat, and I am constantly accursed of being very strange. I wear that like a badge of honor. I assumed it was a typo or that you had forgotten when you said rear bumper. If I didn't think the members here were intelligent informed people I wouldn't hang out here. I agree with you that pretty much anything can launch and retrieve a small recreational boat like these CCs on an improved ramp. I don't think there is a "right" answer to this tow vehicle question. I had vowed never to get involved in a tow vehicle discussion after I was whipped by other members about my tow vehicle. I kinda liked it though and got sucked in again, but only for a laugh. BTW, my neighbor retrieved my runabout with a Polaris 4 wheeler on my sand ramp once. The little Ion truckster is not much good on sand. It takes the Escape 4WD to pull out pretty much anything on the sand. |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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Yeah, but look at that tower!! |
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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P71_CrownVic
Gold Member Joined: July-07-2008 Location: SD Status: Offline Points: 534 |
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Original. I guess I shouldn't have said "just under" 4K pounds. It's actually closer to 3700.
LOL... I'm thinking of getting the 3/4 ton clearance lights...so that should add 1K pounds to my tow rating.
HAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!! I'm just messing with ya... |
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P71_CrownVic
Gold Member Joined: July-07-2008 Location: SD Status: Offline Points: 534 |
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1. There has GOT to be more to that story. 2. You can do that in an auto as well. I have a "3", "2", and a "1" in my truck. 3. I drive a 60K+ pound fire trucks with an auto. All of our appratus have autos. These are beefy transmissions (usually Allisons). With todays technology, I wouldn't say manuals are any better than autos. |
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67425ks
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IMO I wouldn't buy a ford ranger with the intentions of pulling anything. Nothing against a ford ranger, I used to have one in high school that took a major flogging and never missed a beat. I just don't like to run on the ragged edge of power and gvwr. last time I pulled a boat with my cummins I made 16mpg with 5 guys seated comfortably and nearly forgot I was pulling a boat.
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quik225
Groupie Joined: April-03-2011 Location: Eustis FL Status: Offline Points: 57 |
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When the shifter is in D and the trans is in 1st, there's a sprag (a one way mech clutch) that keeps the low gear hyd clutch housing from spinning. The sprag can be damaged while in 1st if the power is not steady. On and off the throttle can shock the sprag till it fails. When the shifter is in 1 or L, the reverse band applies around the low hyd clutch housing, holding it, so shock loads will not have to absorbed by the sprag. |
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OverMyHead
Grand Poobah Joined: March-14-2008 Location: MN Status: Offline Points: 4861 |
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My reasoning for the manual on the dakota was financial. I saved $1500 when the vehicle was purchased new. I have 201,000 miles on the truck currently. I have replaced the tranny fluid three times, and done the clutch twice at a cost of about 1 grand total. I am sure I would have done at least one $2000 automatic tranny replacement by now, and a few more auto trans tune ups so I figure I am up a minimum $2500 by now or 1 1/4 cents per mile ( not so impressive when you put it that way). The transfer case has only had fluid changes, The rear-end has had output bearings replaced twice and I am going to swap out the whole thing for a younger junk yard version soon. I did kill the motor at 188,000, also swapped for a junkyard motor with 80,000 miles and 140 psi on all cylinders for under a grand. I think the trailering has had some influence on the drive train, along with my 19 year old son who has been the primary driver the last three years. I still can't complain much.
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For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats.
1987 Ski Nautique |
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3241 |
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That's pretty good service for that truck Overhead. MN winters are tough on vehicles. Salt for the body and serious cold for the engine & drivetrain. Add in a lot of towing and a young driver and you did very well!
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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I would have to think the 4*4 Ranger would be much better than the 2wd. Not just because of the actual 4 wheel drive, but because of the low range. Further, the extended cab version would most likely be better, because the extra length would give you added stability.
As far as transmissions, at speed, the manual wouldn't have slippage, that causes heat and wear, once the clutch is fully engaged. On my auto, the book says to put in 3 instead of drive (4) when towing. I guess it won't or shouldn't do overdrive when towing. Also interesting the tow ratings for 4*4 Jeep Liberty are as follows: Automatic: 2,000 pounds Manual: 3,500 pounds Automatic with cooling kit: 5,000 pounds |
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4269 |
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I wouldn't go with a 2WD light vehicle, you'll get stuck at a ramp sooner or later. I'm not arguing with those who've had success retrieving boats with 2WD and posi, I just have been on some very steep ramps (Lake Champlain at Burlington comes to mind) that, once wet, make a lot of vehicles struggle, even some 4WD.
I'm now driving a Jeep Liberty diesel. Tow rating is 5,000 lbs., and I've towed my Sport and a few other boats around 4,000 lbs., maybe a bit more with gear. It tows 4,000 lbs. very easily, not a problem holding any speed, climbing any hill I've found so far. At the ramp, or in sand (I launch on our local lake from my yard) you can put it in 4WD low and it will walk up with barely any throttle. I'm not saying this Jeep will take the place of a 3/4 ton pickup, but if you want a somewhat lighter, smaller SUV that can tow really well and get 28-30 mpg on the highway (not towing), you can't beat one of these. I'd find it hard to make any argument in favor of a manual tranny for towing, the only exception is holding speed on a downgrade. |
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4269 |
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And I forgot to mention, the diesel Liberty has the 545RFE transmission, the same one they put in hemi pickups and Durango's. So, the 5,000 lb. rating is well below the capability of the tranny, though the stock torque converter needs to be replaced with a tougher one, a glitch in the design.
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3241 |
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63 Skier, your namesake boat is fantastic. The photo of the young girl in front of it on your diary is priceless.
About the Liberty, that is seriously good mileage. It is easy to find the EPA ratings, but it is always good to hear from an owner. How is the mileage around town? Also, has it had any cold weather starting problems? It is not uncommon for the temp to be -25 at the cottage in northern Wisconsin. I have a ramp on the property, but its sand and the Ion will barely drive on sand without a trailer. My wife''s Escape has no problem with 4wd, but she's not always there. We were thinking of buying her a new Escape, but maybe we should take a look at one of these as well. She liked her Grand Cherokee we traded on the Escape, but the trans went at 60,000, and it was a real pig on gas. We never really towed with it except a few miles to the ramp a few times either. Maybe that new trans is much better. Her trans was a 42RE with a tow package (trans cooler). |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4269 |
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Thanks for the compliment, but in truth the boat doesn't look so good these days, I'm just not good at keeping up with the cosmetic work. That is my oldest who is now 17 and heading to college next year, so the pics are maybe 10 years old.
They only made the diesel Liberty's in '05 and '06 so don't bother looking for a new one. I'm not impressed with the 3.7 V6 gas motor. Like most diesels, you get the most out of them with aftermarket tunes, and I bought both an engine tune and a transmission tune that help it get that mileage. Around town it gets 25-26. So far no problem in cold, but we really haven't had any serious cold yet this year and I've only had it since late spring. |
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21169 |
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Personally, I need 4wd where I launch and store the boat- and I never have to worry about encountering a rough or steep ramp. If you know where youre going to be launching all the time and can get away with 2wd, then thats a different story.
BTW, anyone who has a true 4x4 system and doesnt pull the boat up the ramp in 4Lo doesnt know what theyre missing! Way easier on the driver and the vehicle. As far as the Ranger goes, it will do just fine for short tows. Dad used an original ('91, 4.0L) Explorer for years. My buddy towed his 3000 lb Shamrock short distances with his 4.0L 4x4 Ranger with the 5sp manual and it did ok. The 3500 lb tow rating on that truck is lower because of the manual tranny for some reason- it must be the weak point, as the same truck with the 4sp auto is rated for 5000 lb. |
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Jllogan
Platinum Member Joined: May-18-2011 Location: canton, OH Status: Offline Points: 1728 |
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to chime in on the liberty gas engine, I pulled my boat with my friends 06 liberty, it was terrible. Gutless wonder, and she gets aweful gas mileage. My sisters Rav4 with a similar is a different world though, much more impressed with toyota small SUV vs the jeep. Im sure the deisel would be great though.
We have always pulled pretty sizeable boats with tacomas. I think they much outperform their ranger counterparts. We pulled my parents 21 ft I/0 60 miles to the lake every weekend with my dads 96 tacoma for 8 years. That was with a 2.8 4 cyl. All freeway, and hilly freeway. It would downshift but it got the job done. He just sold it with 170000 miles on it for 6500$, still original automatic tranny and engine, no issues. The resale value of these vehicles shows how tough they are. He just bought a new one and its really nice too, hopefully it is built like the 96. |
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