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dochockey 
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Joined: September-16-2009 Location: Colorado Status: Offline Points: 638 |
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 Posted: March-14-2012 at 11:49am |
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One can make a study on any subject matter and have the results in favor of that study it always comes down to money.
Global warming has been around since the sun was born with out it we would be a big ice cube. Like I said if something is repeated enough you may start to believe it and peer pressure doesn't help. |
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1989 Teal Ski Nautique
1967 Mustang Harris Float Sunfish |
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OverMyHead
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Joined: March-14-2008 Location: MN Status: Offline Points: 4861 |
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Posted: March-14-2012 at 11:50am |
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John, your willingness to make up beer science to support your point of view is proof of my concerns. Some might even say you are being a talking donkey  . I drink more beer every summer, and it gets warmer every summer, you might be onto something, global beering is effecting the weather.
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For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats.
1987 Ski Nautique |
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Hansel
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Joined: September-21-2006 Location: Twin Cities, MN Status: Offline Points: 415 |
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Posted: March-14-2012 at 12:44pm |
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Hi Dave,
Thanks for the reply, which was much more measured than mine was. Scientists who study climate, not surprisingly, already know about all of the things that you listed, e.g. solar cycles, earth orbit cycles, shading effects caused by particulate matter, etc. As one person once put it to me "They know about the Sun!" We are also talking about long time scales here, much longer than a single season. As for CO2 being no big deal because it is natural, well, you can drown if you have too much water... I understand that you have some healthy skepticism, and that is a GOOD thing. The simple fact is that 97-98% of climate scientists believe the evidence available points to a 90% probability that humans are causing the earth to warm. Notice that there are no 100%s in there... We are talking about scientific consensus; I am sure there are plate tectonic doubters out there but you presumably have been swayed by the evidence to believe in them. How is this any different? If an expert doctor told me there was a 90% chance that I had cancer, I think that I'd take her/him pretty seriously. I guess at the end of the day you'd rather be the "liberal" in this case (in contrast to a "conservative" position which would be cautious about forging ahead) and choose to shrug off the evidence and take your chances. But again, the vast vast body of evidence is in stark opposition to your position and it seems from everything you write that you have chosen to defend your world view from assault rather than modify it in light of available evidence. Who was the indoctrinated one again? To the funding comment, most scientists I know want to study something relevant and interesting and nobody views this job as anything even remotely approaching a "cash cow." I think you'll find that most scientists could make a lot more money doing something else, but they do it because they love it. |
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dochockey
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Joined: September-16-2009 Location: Colorado Status: Offline Points: 638 |
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Posted: March-14-2012 at 1:05pm |
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Would you agree that Universities do most of the research? You have dept heads that use the students ( your future scientist) to do their work and then they publish the results? Tell me where the money comes from?
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1989 Teal Ski Nautique
1967 Mustang Harris Float Sunfish |
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Hansel
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Joined: September-21-2006 Location: Twin Cities, MN Status: Offline Points: 415 |
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Posted: March-14-2012 at 3:25pm |
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Hi Kirk,
Per Wikipedia "Funding of science", in major industrialized such as the US around 70% of what might be called "research" or "R&D" takes place in industry, with the remaining 30% split close to evenly by universities and government. Our country spends around $300 billion/yr on "research." For example, at UW-Madison where I am research expenditures are in the $1+ billion/yr range. I would hazard a guess that much if not most of that money comes from the Federal Government. Annual spending by the National Institutes of Health (NIH) runs around $30 billion/yr and the National Science Foundation is funded to the tune of $7+ billion/yr. Other major Federal funding sources include the Dept. of Energy, USDA, USGS, EPA, FDA, and a host of other sources. Private industry is also collaborating increasingly often with universities; in fact the UW-Madison's Wisconsin Institute for Discovery (WID) was recently named "Laboratory of the Year by R&D Magazine. It is a crass notion to think that academics "use" those on the lower rungs, at least relative to any other human endeavor. I am sure that it happens in some cases and at some level, as department heads and project advisors have a vested interest in getting results as we all do. My experience is that department heads and others are facilitators of research. I (a student) get to publish my own results. I know that things can be different in other places/departments/etc. but I don't think it is valid assumption to say that that is the paradigm. That is "reserach" in general. If you want to know about climate research, I will have to do a bit more digging and get back to you. Where in Michigan are you from? I grew up on the west side of the lower peninsula! |
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Hansel
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Joined: September-21-2006 Location: Twin Cities, MN Status: Offline Points: 415 |
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Posted: March-14-2012 at 3:37pm |
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Just came across this.... I would describe myself as a scientist who does "pure research" as defined here. If any of you ever want to poke around a university and see what it is like just hit me up. Before I got into research I didn't have a good idea of what goes on in a place like this and I think anybody who has never seen how research operates or what people at a huge university do would get a kick out of it.
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ononewheel
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Joined: June-21-2011 Location: B Status: Offline Points: 776 |
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Posted: March-14-2012 at 6:04pm |
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I might take you up on the tour sometime, as long as I can tie up at the Union docks. You will not have to convince me of your research though, but my boys 9-10 years old could use some "indoctrinating", the grades this year are slipping.
I could take you for a few pulls too. Most of our time is spent on Mendota in the shadow of your school. In fact let me get the spotting scope, and I could see you wave. |
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If we let the professionals do everything it takes all the fun out of youtube
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Hansel
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Joined: September-21-2006 Location: Twin Cities, MN Status: Offline Points: 415 |
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Posted: March-14-2012 at 7:19pm |
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Yeah man! That would be great. I have a lot of friends/colleagues in the Center for Limnology right on the water. I've never spent a summer in Madison (fieldwork is in Iceland) but I hope to get some time there this summer since my data collection days are over. Just PM me or track me down in the interwebs to get a hold of me. I am at your service, and in fact had been meaning to ask you for some time if you ever wanted to grab a beer.
Best! Jamin |
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ononewheel
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Posted: March-14-2012 at 9:22pm |
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Yes, we'll do that. I am currently replacing the engine, and expect to be ready in two weeks or so. Had I known the warm temps, I'd already have it done. My guess is the parks dept. will have the piers in by then too.
You will like summers in Madison I think. The union is one of our hangouts sometime. Fun to grab a burger or brat and watch the people after a long day, and the music makes it even more fun. We were on the water all but 12 days last summer, until October 8th. I think it was 80 degrees that day. I'll pm my cell in a bit. Back to gas prices, Obama, Air Force One, Chevy Volts, Tesla, religion, God, oil refining, global warming, politics... Nice topic you started Dave..... |
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If we let the professionals do everything it takes all the fun out of youtube
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ononewheel
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Posted: March-14-2012 at 9:36pm |
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I am not speaking for JonB, but it might be along the same lines as getting baptized before you even know what the concept of God is, somehow making you one of his chosen ones. Or, how easy it is now days to become one. With a few dollars and an internet connection, it is said and done. I might do that someday, just so I could marry my God believing friends. That could be some fun times. It would be alot easier than being elected for a county Judge. When I got married the first time, the minister was a good friend of mine, who also happened to grow some of the best weed I had ever smoked. That *************** took me to a higher level.. How much of a contradiction is it to be a priest in the catholic church, and molest boys and girls at the same time? I take JonB's side, no matter his reason for the contradiction , it sounds like fun to me. Dang, I bet you can deduct many things from taxes if you are a minister. |
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If we let the professionals do everything it takes all the fun out of youtube
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eric lavine
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Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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Posted: March-14-2012 at 10:01pm |
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I think i figured this out with the global warming and the thousand ton boulders, back in the day, maybe, possibly in Egypt or in these whacky places that they put these 1000 ton boulders up ie, pyrmiads oblisks?? there was ice at the time in their area and they formed pools of water and they froze the pools and slid these things in place lol, just a thoery
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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GlassSeeker
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Joined: November-26-2008 Location: Elk Grove, CA. Status: Offline Points: 2421 |
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Posted: March-14-2012 at 10:07pm |
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I have proof of evolution right here
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This is the life
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harddock
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Joined: June-04-2008 Location: Toontown, MA Status: Offline Points: 1763 |
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Posted: March-14-2012 at 10:20pm |
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@ One wheel, If your not speaking for John B then your answer is irrelaevant. Whether you agree or not. Whether you are baptized before you pick a belief or choose not to does not matter here. John B said he does not believe in religion and he is an ordained minister. he seems to convieniently not be around to explain (for himself) how that can be. If he was ordained and something happened to make him a non bekiever afterward I would think he would have mentioned he was a former ordined minister. To be a minister and a non believer has me puzzled. He made it a point of revealing the minister bit, so I have to ask.
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skicat2001
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Joined: November-24-2008 Location: Ft. Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 1950 |
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Posted: March-14-2012 at 10:45pm |
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 Harddock he is a sick person.. And I never caught that. He is a minister and shows no faith. AMAZING!!! |
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1985 CC 2001-SOLD
Lee Michael Johnson |
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GlassSeeker
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Joined: November-26-2008 Location: Elk Grove, CA. Status: Offline Points: 2421 |
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Posted: March-14-2012 at 11:20pm |
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Ever read Doonesbury?
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This is the life
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john b
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Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3241 |
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Posted: March-15-2012 at 12:19am |
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L
I am sorry I was not around to explain myself sooner. I am spending the week in Hilton Head with my wife. SPRING BREAK! I am an ordained minister in the Universal Life Church (ULC), as is my brother who performed the wedding ceremony for my youngest daughter. The ULC church doctrine is "Do only that which is right". The church believes in absolute spiritual freedom. My personal belief is in absolute science, and I am spreading the word. I don't see my ministry as hypocritical all, unlike the hundreds of spiritual leaders in some churches who offer to show you the way to righteousness and love their cogregation, literally, and are doing time for it. I try to always do that which is right and fair to all, and I follow the teachings of science. My "bible" is composed of all of the books, journals, and papers produced during the study of science. I require that anything I believe in can be argued utilizing the scientific method, and require that the results of the research can be demonstrated and repeated in experiments. It is as real as any religion, however my ministry does not call those with different philosophies "sick". My religion is about tolerance and respect. I have satisfied all of the official requirements that a minister in any church is required to do before earning the title of Reverend. It requires nothing more than agreeing to the church doctrine and a left mouse click. I believe this thread has demonstrated the intolerance and hypocrisy that most people exhibit in the name of religion, that being "my religion is right, screw everyone else". The Universal Life Church most likely has more ordained ministers than any other, currently around 20,000,000. I would be happy to respect the beliefs of anyone who recipricates. Sincerely, Reverend John Beeman. |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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john b
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Posted: March-15-2012 at 1:43am |
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It is no easier to become an ordained minister "these days" than it has been in the past, with the exception of being able to use the internet rather than The US Mail. Each application must be reviewed by a real person and recorded in church records. The Universal Life Church charges nothing to become ordained. It is not like some of the "sham" internet churches that do. There is also no tax benefit to becoming ordained. That's a funny story about the bud! |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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john b
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Posted: March-15-2012 at 1:49am |
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I am sorry I was not around to explain myself sooner. I am spending the week in Hilton Head with my wife.
SPRING BREAK! I am an ordained minister in the Universal Life Church (ULC), as is my brother who performed the wedding ceremony for my youngest daughter. The ULC church doctrine is "Do only that which is right". The church believes in absolute spiritual freedom. My personal belief is in absolute science, and I am spreading the word. I don't see my ministry as hypocritical all, unlike the hundreds of spiritual leaders in some churches who offer to show you the way to righteousness, and love their cogregation, literally, and are doing time for it. I try to always do that which is right and fair to all, and I follow the teachings of science. My "bible" is composed of all of the books, journals, and papers produced during the study of science. I require that anything I believe in can be argued utilizing the scientific method, and require that the results of the research can be demonstrated and repeated in experiments. It is as real as any religion, however my ministry does not call those with different philosophies "sick". My religion is about tolerance and respect. I have satisfied all of the official requirements that a minister in any church is required to do before earning the title of Reverend. It requires nothing more than agreeing to the church doctrine and a left mouse click. I believe this thread has demonstrated the intolerance and hypocrisy that most people exhibit in the name of religion, that being "my religion is right, screw everyone who doesn't agree with me because they are sick". Or those who choose to obey only the doctrine of their religion they find convenient, such as practicing some kind of birth control when the church prohibits it. As to miracles I would like to ask what was observed when the sun stood still? Since our solar system revolves around the sun, essentially nothing would be observed to a person on earth or any other planet in our solar system. The Universal Life Church most likely has more ordained ministers than any other, currently around 20,000,000. I would be happy to respect the beliefs of anyone who recipricates. Sincerely, Reverend John Beeman. |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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GlassSeeker
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Joined: November-26-2008 Location: Elk Grove, CA. Status: Offline Points: 2421 |
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Posted: March-15-2012 at 1:56am |
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Wow I missed the whole thing about the GodBud
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This is the life
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OverMyHead
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Posted: March-15-2012 at 3:10am |
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Lee, you are supposed to be a fisher of men, I don't think standing at the edge of the pond throwing rocks at the fish is considered fishing. |
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For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats.
1987 Ski Nautique |
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eric lavine
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Posted: March-15-2012 at 8:59am |
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John, very curious, what exactly is your belief? magic or science? is what you believe a form of sciencetology?
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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MattB
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Posted: March-15-2012 at 10:04am |
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"God took a rib from Adam's side and made a woman"
Now that's what I call MAGIC right there  actually maybe he just had a really good chemistry set 
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harddock
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Posted: March-15-2012 at 10:26am |
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I am satisfied with your explination but I refuse to comment to my opinion of it. I do have a much better understanding now when I read anything you write, and I'll leave it at that.
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Riley
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Posted: March-15-2012 at 11:23am |
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"The Universal Life Church wants you to pursue your spiritual beliefs without interference from any outside agency, including government or church authority."
So what happens when you guys discuss religion? Or do you stay away from those discussions? |
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john b
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Posted: March-15-2012 at 11:55am |
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No Eric, it's not Scientology, or any other organized religion. I would never belong to a religion with beliefs outside of the demonstrated science of evolution. I would also never belong to a religion or believe anyone who expects me to donate money in exchange for an un-verifiable reward such as living forever. As a matter of fact, as a minister, I will offer you eternal life for the meager sum of $100 per month. You can trust me, no one who has died has ever complained! Did your super being create Neandrathal man, Peking man, or or were Adam and Eve one old the earlier apes? Why would someone with an impressive science lab who created Adam need a rib to create Eve? Cloning I presume. As it was once said "show me the money"! |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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john b
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Posted: March-15-2012 at 11:59am |
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This thread is the perfect example of what happens when we discuss religion. As one of our ULC ministers once said "imagine no religion, I wonder if you can" another said "all you need is love" and they set it to music! |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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MattB
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Posted: March-15-2012 at 12:54pm |
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There sure are a lot of goodies in the shop!
http://ulc.net/index.php?page=shop I especially liked the "Tax and Financial Guide for Churches" and the "Wedding Business "How To" Video on DVD", seems like a great way to start making some cash to pay for gas. Sorry but I can't help myself, I see a post on a forum about some internet based church and my fingers start typing random rubbish on the keyboard, its difficult to stop myself... Confession may help me though! http://ulc.net/index.php?page=confession This is one of my biggest problems with religion, its control and order and one of the biggest money making scams out there. If you read enough and repeat things enough eventually you will believe. It's just good news that free will has not been taken away by the government yet so we can all choose our own paths. P.S. I hope I got the right URL's 
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harddock
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Posted: March-15-2012 at 1:21pm |
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John,Do you work on Christmas? it's just another day. Sundays? just another day right? Government should not be closed on Sundays? It is not the week end but actually the start of the week according to a calandar.
If you are a minister and your beleiefs revolves around science, and you have faith in your beliefs then you have a religion. Maybe not a conventual or Christian religion but still a religion which is different from not having or believing in any religion. So your science beliefs (religion) has no place in government either. |
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john b
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Posted: March-15-2012 at 1:26pm |
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If you care to buy any of their products you are free to do so, however they have never requested any money from me and I have never sent them any. That, my friend, is a true church. I don't have to pay for my "salvation". The only thing I need to be saved from is people who want my money to gain power within their group and wear funny little costumes one day each week. They say Jesus made the greatest sacrifice to "save"us. What was that really, since you believe he has the ability to rise from the dead and he went to a utopian paradise. Sounds like he did himself a favor and blew out on all of you! Another question. If Jesus is the only way to salvation, what happened to the millions born before him? I suppose they are all remanded to the custody of the cute little horny devil (you need someone to blame your bad behavior on) since they didn't have the boy wonder to throw them a line. I'm not buying it or any other fairy tale. |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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skicat2001
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Joined: November-24-2008 Location: Ft. Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 1950 |
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Posted: March-15-2012 at 1:29pm |
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Dave I understand and agree. Thats the bad part, when something fuels you when people are not doing right, the devil temptation is there and I still fall to anger or sinning every now and then.. |
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1985 CC 2001-SOLD
Lee Michael Johnson |
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john b wrote: