Prop shaft came loose |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Online Points: 21183 |
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Talk about overkill... JB Weld would have worked just fine. |
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13514 |
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So a new member of my ski club was telling me how he welded the shaft to the coupler on his friend's Centurion because the set screws wouldn't hold it in anymore...
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backfoot100
Platinum Member Joined: January-03-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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Merritt,
Now you have the general idea for a single taper shaft and coupler which is what your old one was. Here's the basics for that shaft/coupler combination. I'll try and dummy it down for you as you requested. You should not be able to fit the shaft and coupler together. The shaft will be noticably larger than the coupler. If the shaft can be inserted into the coupler by hand both are probably junk but taking it to a good machinist who knows something about inboard prop shafts will help to determine if one of them may be fixed or resused. The clearances have been discussed already. Generally, they're junk and just replace both. Chances of fixing are probably not worth the price. Heat the coupler in an oven to at least 200-225 degrees for at least a half hour. Maybe even 45 minutes. If you have a freezer big enough, put the shaft in a frezer for at least an hour. Two would be even better. Now comes the tricky part. Take the couopler while it's still hot and the shaft while it's still cold and fit them together with the slots and key properly aligned and they'll shink/expand together. You will obviously need gloves and please be saftey conscious. Now you have another problem. You probably fitted them together on a bench someplace. Now you have to get the shaft back in the boat but you probably didn't think that far ahead. The only way the shaft will go back in the boat now is by removing the engine and transmission which is another thread entirely and probably something well beyond your abilities in the timeframes that you've allowed for yourself not to mention the equipment needed to do this task. Some here have been able to put the shaft/coupler together in the boat but it's obviously much more difficult and needs probably several other pairs of hands to accomplish. Timing is of the esscense when doing this so you need to plan accordingly or remove the engine/tranny. Your choice. Now with the shaft coupler installed in the boat, you can go through your alignment procedure as you've found elsewhere. What we generally recommend instead of going through all this stuff is purchasing an ARE double taper shaft and coupler. These are easliy put together in the boat. You don't have to remove the engine or tranny. There is no heating of the coupler, freezing of the shaft or any of the other issues associated with a single taper shaft as they are fit together like the prop fits on the other end of the shaft...a taper fit. Hense the name...double taper shaft. Very easy, very fast and very simple. They are however, more expensive. So there you have it. Hope this helps you to understand things a bit better. |
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When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.
Eddie |
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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Merritt - Kudos for sticking with it. You are learning a new skill set, something you can pass onto your kids.
It sounds to me like the current shaft has been beat up. The easy thing to do now is to buy a new ARE shaft. They are much easier to remove at the next 'incident'. I live in a heavy industry town & haven't found a machine shop without a high setup fee. |
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Online Points: 21183 |
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Merrit, not to beat you up too much or come across as preachy, but everything you need to know was posted several days ago. Pete told you what the problem was and Chris told you how to check and see if any of your old parts can be saved:
Like you said, this website is full of smart people willing to donate their time to help you out... but you have to hold up your end of the bargain! As a teacher, surely you understand that the student shares part of the responsibility in the learning process. If you dont understand something, dont ignore it- ask for clarification. No one is talking above your head on purpose. Dont understand what a "heat shrink" or "interference fit" is? Ask! (Or you can google it) Dont have the tools that you need to perform the checks described? Ask for a description and we'll tell you where to get some that wont break your budget. 6" Digital calipers for $16.99 If you determine that you cant save your parts, we'll remind you that you can save 10% on SkiDIM orders. We'll also give you the information you need to determine the proper shaft length if you buy new... I would NOT recommend ordering a shaft the same length as the one you removed (it is likely too long). |
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merrittarnold
Groupie Joined: June-06-2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 83 |
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Peter, I think I understand now. Can a machinist get a new coupling, bore it and refurbish the shaft for less than $400? I was resigned to just order the set from Skidm.
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There are motorcycles; and there are Harley Davidsons.
There are tractors; and there are John Deeres. There are ski boats; and there are Ski Nautiques! |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Merritt,
It's possible that both the machinist and the mechanic you talked to aren't versed in inboards and the need for a heat shrink fit or if they are maybe you didn't follow what they had to say. Reread the thread as suggested. If you mentioned the heat shrink fit to the machinist, he should immediately understand. It's still possible to do the repair the damage for not much money. Get another coupling half but undersize or "blank bore". Take the shaft and coupling half to the machinist and have him bore the coupling .000" to -.0005" matching the old shaft diameter. As Tom mentioned, all shafting has tolerances plus as mentioned, you old shaft may be worn as well. Even brand new and couplings are bored to match the shaft for the heat shrink fit. You can't just go by the shaft being a 1" diameter. The key can be found at the hardware store but have the machinist look at the keyway in your old shaft. Since you chewed up your key, the keyway in the shaft may be chewed up as well. If so, it can be machined oversize and then the machinist can make a key to fit. |
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kytom2
Gold Member Joined: July-25-2007 Location: Maysville Ky Status: Offline Points: 698 |
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Merritt
Max Shaft Diameter = 1.0000 Min Coupling Bore = .9995 resultant fit .0005 tight. Min Shaft Diameter = .99975 Max Coupling Bore = .99975 resultant fit size on size. These are just representative numbers to get to what Pete was saying about the "shrink fit". Actual shaft diameters and bore may be different. Just trying to get you visualizing what people are saying.Its just math. |
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merrittarnold
Groupie Joined: June-06-2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 83 |
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Thanks guys. I will look for a new shaft/coupling set to get it right. ARE seems advised by several guys.
I also found Peter's video on shaft/strut alignment. Now THAT was helpful. I wish I had found that earlier. I was trying to figure how I was going to heat the coupling when he talked about the oven. |
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There are motorcycles; and there are Harley Davidsons.
There are tractors; and there are John Deeres. There are ski boats; and there are Ski Nautiques! |
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skitique179
Senior Member Joined: December-06-2011 Status: Offline Points: 176 |
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Also I agree with Glass Seeker. Nobody was trying to insult you or give you a hard time. Just slow down do some research on what these guys are saying and go from there. These guys know there stuff and their advice will help. Yeah sometimes the diagnoses isn't fun for you or the credit card but is is all worth it when you get to enjoy the boat...
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skitique179
Senior Member Joined: December-06-2011 Status: Offline Points: 176 |
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No expert but I believe that the heat shrunk coupling is a coupling for a non-tapered shaft that you must heat up before installing. I have read posts where people heat them in the oven and then install them. It may be possible to install while the shaft is in the boat but would definitely be easier with the engine removed so you can slide it in the other way. Maybe somebody else will chime in...
From experience with this issue though I would highly recommend the ARE shaft system. You will save yourself a bunch of time and hassle. Yes its expensive but that is why they call it a boat... Break Out Another Thousand Hole in the water that you throw money into Etc... |
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GlassSeeker
Grand Poobah Joined: November-26-2008 Location: Elk Grove, CA. Status: Offline Points: 2421 |
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no one is calling you anything, no one is trying to hurt your feelings, only attempting to get the point across, I think if you read the thread from the beginning the answers are mostly there.
yes these things do cost money but following the advise here can be much cheaper than winging it. slow down take a breath and maybe don't ruin a new coupler, if the shaft is in fact jacked up(fretted) worn, not round, not in tolerance, and since you have not heat shrink fit it on the shaft then that says the shaft probably is bad. measure it. |
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This is the life
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merrittarnold
Groupie Joined: June-06-2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 83 |
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Thank you Overmyhead. Does that mean a previous owner put in the wrong kind of coupling and shaft and I need to start over? Where do I need to go to get someone to do it right? The previous posts said not to take it to the marina.
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There are motorcycles; and there are Harley Davidsons.
There are tractors; and there are John Deeres. There are ski boats; and there are Ski Nautiques! |
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merrittarnold
Groupie Joined: June-06-2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 83 |
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Look guys, I apologize. I'm a school teacher with three kids who like to ski. I am not a mechanic. Nor do I have loads of money to spend on one.
In the past you guys have helped me replace the steering cable, fix an overheating engine, rebuild a carburetor, align a shaft prop, decide how to handle a broken fuel gauge, give suggestions on towers versus extended pylons, and how to fix several routine issues with a thirty-five year old boat; and I thank you all. Everybody usually responds in a matter of minutes instead of days and have been patient with my amateur attempts sometimes explaining things in plain language I can understand. I usually get access to a lake house for two weeks a year and spend half the time keeping the boat running. I'm not complaining because I love getting out of the classroom and getting my hands dirty rather than just doing the easy thing of selling a classic Ski Nautique and buying some stupid plastic boat like the Seadoos and Sunbirds others buy.(I think you guys know what I mean.) I have very limited assets and can't just shell out hundreds of dollars every time I go out on the water. In previous years I have had plenty of help from the experts here. I normally search every forum post first so I don't ask questions already explained elsewhere. So, please, if you are willing to explain to me what I should do and how to do it like most of the Grand Poobahs have done in the past then I appreciate the help. I need it in simple language to a guy who has never messed with a shaft before. However, if you feel the desire to answer with "you're just doing it wrong" or "you can lead a horse to water" or some other unhelpful condescending response then please stay out of the way and let the guys who are willing to take their valuable time and actually help me to understand do the replying. I'm doing the best I can with what I have. Now, I took the coupling to a veteran boat mechanic and machinist. He told me where to go to get the right coupling. I got a coupling made for a Ski Nautique identical to the one I took off. I don't know what it means to be heat shrunk. Is a heat shrunk coupling different than the coupling I took off or is it a process for mounting the new coupling? I want to do it right if I can. Do I need to remove the prop and shaft completely in order to fasten it to the coupling or can the coupling be replaced without removing the shaft? What length square rod key do I use and how do you properly seat it in the coupling and shaft simultaneously? These are the things I need help in understanding. Call me whatever insult you want, I guarantee it's not worse than what my elementary students have called me. But if you are the patient mentor type, willing to help a newbie amateur, then you are acting like the true professionals who have helped me in the past. Thank you. You are the men I have grown to truly respect and come to for help. |
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There are motorcycles; and there are Harley Davidsons.
There are tractors; and there are John Deeres. There are ski boats; and there are Ski Nautiques! |
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OverMyHead
Grand Poobah Joined: March-14-2008 Location: MN Status: Offline Points: 4861 |
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Merrit. Heat shrink fits means the coupler has to be smaller than the shaft, requiring heating the coupler to several hundred degrees expanding it to get it on the shaft. If it went on without heat the shaft is smaller than the coupler and will come apart again putting you back at your first post.
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For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats.
1987 Ski Nautique |
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GlassSeeker
Grand Poobah Joined: November-26-2008 Location: Elk Grove, CA. Status: Offline Points: 2421 |
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wow, post on here asking for help, get help, ignor help and do exactly what told not to do.
you can lead a horse to water... |
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This is the life
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TX Foilhead
Grand Poobah Joined: February-01-2009 Location: Kingsland TX Status: Offline Points: 2076 |
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No, there it went.
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baitkiller
Platinum Member Joined: October-11-2011 Location: SW Florida Status: Offline Points: 1693 |
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get ready... here it comes...
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Jesus was a bare-footer.............
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Merritt, You are on your own. Sorry but many tried to give you advice but you seemed to have ignored it. Of course it's a 1" shaft but again, the fit is a heat shrink. |
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merrittarnold
Groupie Joined: June-06-2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 83 |
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It was a 1inch coupling. Shaft is not egg shaped. Flat front with keyway. Coupling has two set screws. Each 120 degrees around from keyway. Not heat fit.
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There are motorcycles; and there are Harley Davidsons.
There are tractors; and there are John Deeres. There are ski boats; and there are Ski Nautiques! |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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"mild speed pretty rough"? What was the bore of the new coupling and the diameter of the old shaft? Was the shaft egg shaped? Is the new coupling heat shrunk onto the shaft. |
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merrittarnold
Groupie Joined: June-06-2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 83 |
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New coupling same shaft. Idle speed it was smooth but when under mild speed it is pretty rough.
I didn't have my gauges with me to align it. Got the gauges from home and I will do a thorough alignment tomorrow morning; weather permitting. Anything else I need to check? |
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There are motorcycles; and there are Harley Davidsons.
There are tractors; and there are John Deeres. There are ski boats; and there are Ski Nautiques! |
||
8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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A code to post pictures? Unless this is a very recent site change, Kevin (HW) is correct.
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13514 |
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You don't actually need live approval you just aren't doing it correct.
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ny_nautique
Platinum Member Joined: June-01-2011 Location: Albany NY Status: Offline Points: 1215 |
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Sign up for a free photobucket.com or flickr.com account. Upload the pics and then use the "Share" option. They will give you the code to post here.
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- Jeff
1999 Ski Nautique |
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merrittarnold
Groupie Joined: June-06-2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 83 |
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I have pics but need a web guru to give me permission to post.
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There are motorcycles; and there are Harley Davidsons.
There are tractors; and there are John Deeres. There are ski boats; and there are Ski Nautiques! |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Merritt,
Don is correct that the alignment can be difficult to grasp for some. We have had some just try to fit the .003" feeler gauge between the coupling halves without loosening up the bolts holding the halves together. What were the measurements when you checked your alignment with the feeler gauge? Unless the marina/mechanic is well versed with inboards, I would not trust their opinion. The machine shop is a better idea. If you take the shaft and coupling to one of them, make sure you tell them the coupling is a heat shrink fit. Please keep us informed of your plans. |
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gun-driver
Grand Poobah Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4127 |
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Also pictures of events like this are worth a thousand words.
If you can post some pics of the shaft and coupler it would help with the diagnosis. You maybe wasteing your time and money trying to put it back together. |
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TX Foilhead
Grand Poobah Joined: February-01-2009 Location: Kingsland TX Status: Offline Points: 2076 |
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I'm sure it's not the first time someone fixed something the previous owner missed or did wrong. Alignment isn't the easiest concept to grasp or fix correctly. At least your going about fixing it the correct way, I'm sure most people would jus put it back and call it good.
I would take it to a machine shop, the marina is probably going to send it to one and tack on something for their time as well. If there's a harbor freight close their tools are cheap and measure as good as anyone's if you feel like doing it yourself. I've actually checked of their stuff at work against much nicer and more expensive stuff and it always comes out accurate, just wouldn't want to use it day in and day out. |
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merrittarnold
Groupie Joined: June-06-2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 83 |
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Well, last time I checked the alignment I used the gauges suggested here and it was aligned perfectly. I wasn't going off of just the turning by hand.
No, I don't have the tools to measure the ID and OD of the coupling and shaft. All the marinas were closed today but I'll have someone look at it in the morning for suggestions. |
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There are motorcycles; and there are Harley Davidsons.
There are tractors; and there are John Deeres. There are ski boats; and there are Ski Nautiques! |
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