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Okie Boarder
Gold Member Joined: August-31-2009 Location: OK Status: Offline Points: 779 |
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We will probably get a stove sized for the whole house, with fan and are planning a fairly open floor plan. We like our main room warm and the bedrooms cool. We both grew up with this type of configuration and our parents would use the central HVAC to move the air, if needed, but most of the time they were satisfied with the stove's heating without any further circulation.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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I used this method when I first installed my air tight and then, the electric bill came in........ Do you know how many KWH's a 1/2 HP blower motor uses - it adds up! |
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Tim D
Grand Poobah Joined: August-23-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2641 |
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Some states it's illegal to collect rain water. I know Colorado is one of them. |
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Tim D
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Tim, Andy is in Oklahoma. Oklahoma: "Update February 27, 2014 regarding Oklahoma: The state government of Oklahoma encourages rain water harvesting. So does Oklahoma City" |
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Tim D
Grand Poobah Joined: August-23-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2641 |
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Yes Pete, I know which state he's in, I saw the OK under his name. I just remember reading about the drought situation in the west and some of the strict rules. I didn't try to remember all of them, but the Colorado rain collecting stuck. The state thinks they own the rain.
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Tim D
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uk1979
Platinum Member Joined: June-13-2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1424 |
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I added a enclosed wood burner with water jacket to my nat/gas tank system ...so now if the wood burner is running it will automatically shuts down the gas boiler on the HW/CH when up to temp and will switch back to gas if the wood burner is left to burn out, the nat/gas boiler also heats the wood burner jacket for faster wood fire HW/CH... last year's cold quarter gas bill was cut buy around $460.00 ...It took me a bit of head scratch and piping to do, should have over a 20 year life cycle now... I know you guys have cheep nat/gas from fracking not so sure on your propane/electric costs in the USA.
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Lets have a go
56 Starflite 77 SN 78 SN 80 BFN |
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Okie Boarder
Gold Member Joined: August-31-2009 Location: OK Status: Offline Points: 779 |
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I'm wondering if radiant heat flooring here is overkill. We don't get get that cold, nor do we typically remain real cold for extended periods of time...this is what our average temperatures are like:
January Average High: 46.7 Average Low: 25.2 Average Precipitation: 1.1 February Average High: 52.1 Average Low: 29.6 Average Precipitation: 1.6 March Average High: 62 Average Low: 38.5 Average Precipitation: 2.7 April Average High: 71.9 Average Low: 48.8 Average Precipitation: 2.8 May Average High: 79.1 Average Low: 57.7 Average Precipitation: 5.2 June Average High: 87.3 Average Low: 66.1 Average Precipitation: 4.3 July Average High: 93.4 Average Low: 70.6 Average Precipitation: 2.6 August Average High: 92.5 Average Low: 69.6 Average Precipitation: 2.6 September Average High: 83.8 Average Low: 62.2 Average Precipitation: 3.8 October Average High: 73.6 Average Low: 50.4 Average Precipitation: 3.2 November Average High: 60.4 Average Low: 38.6 Average Precipitation: 2.0 December Average High: 49.9 Average Low: 28.6 Average Precipitation: 1.4 |
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peter1234
Grand Poobah Joined: February-03-2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2756 |
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Radiant isnt cheap. if you have bare concrete floors with area rugs or tile then consider it .otherwise stick with heat pump style hvac or forced hot water (yuck)
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former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go
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CrazyCanuck
Senior Member Joined: July-21-2013 Location: Vancouver B.C. Status: Offline Points: 254 |
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My feet are sore just thinking of standing on hard concrete while making dinner of entertaining in the kitchen. Why not vinyl plank or something to soften up things? Also if you do a tile or natural stone floor you can use the electric floor heating system which is way cheaper that a hot water system. Save you from having to do a boiler for the whole house and use forced air heat with cooling for the summer instead.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Cory,
Electric for heat? Do you own stocks in power companies? BTW, those embedded electric radiant systems are known to be a problem with reliability. |
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Okie Boarder
Gold Member Joined: August-31-2009 Location: OK Status: Offline Points: 779 |
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My in-laws have concrete and I've never noticed a difference in flooring. We've almost always had tile and never had issues...seems like concrete isn't much different. Any experience that has shown it is distinctly different? The point you're making is something I've read when researching, but wonder how that plays out. |
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OverMyHead
Grand Poobah Joined: March-14-2008 Location: MN Status: Offline Points: 4861 |
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I have tile in my kitchen and definitely feel it when I stand in there for awhile. I usually am in stocking feet. I am amazed at the difference between even hard wood vs tile to stand on. Makes me wonder if if it is the hardness or the ability of the ceramic tile to suck the heat out of your feet that makes the feet ache? Of course maybe I just stand in one spot longer in the kitchen than anywhere else.
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For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats.
1987 Ski Nautique |
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Orlando76
Grand Poobah Joined: May-21-2013 Location: Mount Dora, FL Status: Offline Points: 3108 |
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I've always had tile in every room and don't think anything of it. Throw rug at the sink, throw rug at stove, couple washes then toss and another $20 were back in business. But I'm still almost young and am on hard concrete all day long. I like polished concrete a lot, or even a nice acid finish. I thought about it in the house but never had opportunity to start with pretty, fresh, virgin concrete. If I could ever warrant the cost I'd do it in my garage.
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CrazyCanuck
Senior Member Joined: July-21-2013 Location: Vancouver B.C. Status: Offline Points: 254 |
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Hard floors is why they put anti fatigue mats behind the counters in stores. Its tough on you. Yes it looks great and so on, but not the warmest or most comfortable thats for sure.
And no Pete, I don't...lol. I wish. I know they are cheaper and can fail over time, but the reason I offered the elec heat mat as a suggestion is that if you do a full radiant in floor, then that is going to be the system for the house. Then how to you add air conditioning? Unless you do two separate hvac systems then you kinda need forced air, either with a heat pump or a conventional furnace with air conditioning. That makes the heat mat a nice touch to keep the bathroom and kitchen floors warm. They only cost a couple light bulbs worth of power to run, and you only use them half the year or so. They are not intended for whole house heat. Just my 2 cents. Plus its been 7 years since I took my Home Depot apron off so my facts are a bit cloudy....lol |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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You have better add up the needed BTU's and convert to watts. |
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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you can run cold water through a radiant floor to help with cooling in the summer.... and naturally concrete feels cooler than the ambient air, so that helps as well on the cooling side of things. If I had a new home building project going on, I would definitely consider radiant floors. Geothermal is cool, but there is a lot of expense to it. A bit of expense now keeps your monthly bills down. I spent a good chucnk on a 96% furnace with oversized ducts and good insulation at our last house, and my bill was cut by more than 50% over our old worn out 80% furnace and nasty flex duct. On the radiant heat, one big benefit that I can see is you don't have furnace fan noise and filters to change.
I agree that the concrete floors are going to be hard on your feet/back over time, but if you do some anti-fatigue mats in the important spots, it's hard to beat the look of those floors! |
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quinner
Grand Poobah Joined: October-12-2005 Location: Unknown Status: Offline Points: 5828 |
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My experience was the same, huge difference in efficiency, worth the extra bucks! Okie, ignore if already discussed, did not read entire thread: garage doors, consider using 8' high door(s) especially if garage level framing is greater then 9'. low maintenance exterior finishes, cedar and other wood or painted/stained finishes look great but can be a PITA and Wallet, lot's of great options that look good and require little or no maintenance. metal roof will be quite a bit more money, consider a nice architectural asphalt shingle, particularly if your long term plan is less then 20yrs. |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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I grew up in a house with a slab,granted it was 50's technology but still,here in the Chicago area it was cold. When they added wall to wall carpet it was the best thing they ever did other than going to Florida for the winter! As to the high efficiency furnaces they sure are high maintance too,just replaced the exhaust blower,my 3rd one in 11 years,glad it acted up when I was home rather than down south
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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I totally agree. If I wasn't able to do the repairs on my 2 - 93%'rs myself, and had to have a hvac serviceman in, I question the payback. |
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quinner
Grand Poobah Joined: October-12-2005 Location: Unknown Status: Offline Points: 5828 |
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Well Pete maybe you need to avoid that Home Depot garbage, lol. My last one ran 10yrs on nothing but filter changes, not a single service call.
Brand new HE unit just installed at the new house, we will see how this one goes. |
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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I have always been a big fan of Trane for this reason... slower on rolling out new products, but very reliable in the end. I dislike some of the other brands because they are too quick to market the newest innovation and leave the end user to be a beta tester for them. Yes, 95% furnaces do require more maintenance... For the purchase price, I saw the payback in just 2 years. I did the install myself, so that part didn't factor in... sorry for the thread jack Okie :) to bring it back on track.... if you do go radiant, another benefit is that your slab won't make your ductwork inaccessible. Under floor ductwork is more efficient for heating than overhead ductwork, so if you decide to use forced air, and put the ducts under the slab, be aware that they need to be insulated well (on the outside... duct liner sucks), or you can have mold issues. They are not accessible if you want to change repair or move something. inaccessibility is also true of radiant, but you would tap new zones off of the header if you ever add on to the house. |
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81nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: September-03-2005 Location: Big Rock, Il Status: Offline Points: 5796 |
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I put a Trane Hi-Ef furnace in about 7 years ago and I have yet to do anything but clean the filters. The system tells me when they need cleaning and I pull the unit out and vacuum all the elements, about a 15 minute job every 3 months. Going with reusable filters I haven't spent a penny out of pocket since installing it. What is the extra maintenance cost you all are talking about with HiEf? |
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Okie Boarder
Gold Member Joined: August-31-2009 Location: OK Status: Offline Points: 779 |
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No worries...the thread is going just as I'd hoped...lots of great information and things I hadn't really thought about.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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My two original 93's were ARCLA Tranes new about 29 years ago and one of the first ones on the market. After 5 years both needed $220.00 control conversions. About every 3 years both needed hot surface ignitors. Then 2 years ago the downstairs one developed a hole in the primary heat exchanger. It was replaced with a Lenox 93. All in all, they have been good to be but the repairs would have been triple the cost if done by a pro.
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81nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: September-03-2005 Location: Big Rock, Il Status: Offline Points: 5796 |
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Ok Last of my thread jacks. Sorry but Pete those are repairs not maintenance costs, that's what I was curious about since I've had neither. And 27 years on a heat exchanger is pretty darn good. I put a new $12,000 rooftop on my business 5 years ago and last year I had to replace the heat exchanger, just out of warranty of course. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Well, Gary started it with "repairs" stating he keeps having to put new draft inducers in his! |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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At 7 years in you are about where you should be knocking on wood when you say that. $800 for a control board last Superbowl Saturday on my dads top o the line carrier (with me putting it in, tech wanted to replace the wiring harness as well quoted a week leadtime and another 6-7 hundo for the part and install, apparently he doesn't have the correct pin extractors for those plugs). He was at year 6. I have put in a few draft inducers for my siblings. If it has a ceramic igniter you should keep a spare, they are wear items. At this point it is more the extra features that drive the extra parts and the extra repairs, not necessarily the efficiency. I would never buy a unit without a ECM fan motor - but if one goes you are going to pay a lot of money for a replacement ($500) that likely wont have the same program and features as the original did. It is what it is... nothing too terrible but they just don't give 30 years of trouble free service, they weren't designed to. 15 years is considered full service life, a major repair or two to get you that far is pretty common. Some units do better of course. Keeping the unit clean, including vacuuming around the inside of the control box once a year goes a long way towards keeping the temp of the control boards down and increasing the life of the board mounted relays. Keeping filters serviced, proper thermostat replacement, proper duct sizing, and proper unit sizing all help reduce short cycling and increase life. The biggest mistake one can make is buying a unit that is too big, and in my experience 90% of units sold are too big by at least one size. I wouldn't hesitate going with a high efficiency unit if you need to buy a new one, but I usually recommend not replacing a perfectly good unit that is working just to get in a high efficiency unit. In a reasonably well insulated house it is hard to make up the cost of the unit in its lifetime. As for geothermal units someday when natural gas is kaput they will be all the rage, I designed the first fully variable speed geothermal heat pump back about a year before natural gas peaked. Too bad for them the marketing group dragged their feet on it an didn't get it released until last year, the 7 cop heating and 60 eer cooling can't compete with sub 50 dollar a barrel oil. |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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If you fix it before it breaks,it's maintenance if it's broke it's repair I was lucky in that I was able to take it apart and get it working again. I bought a new one for 370! so that when I'm back in Florida I don't get the phone call that the heats out and will keep the old one for a spare. Pete is there someone around Chicago where I could walk in to get parts? I ordered this one of the internet and got it the next day which this time worked out. I know you cannot compair apples to oranges but in the 57 years my old Bryant was here I had one service call to replace a gas valve,and changed one thermocouple and one blower motor myself. This Carrier installed in '03 has now had 3 exhaust blowers,a gas valve and a ignitor. All but the last motor requiring a service call.
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Joe is a flame sensor a good to have spare too or did I get one for nothing? Anything else other than an ignitor and exhaust blower for spares,I give up!
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81nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: September-03-2005 Location: Big Rock, Il Status: Offline Points: 5796 |
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Thanks Joe, I understand all the repair costs and trust me I have experienced my share over the years but between my residence and my commercial properties I maintain 5 heating systems. The comments above lead me to believe that it costs more to maintain a HiE unit than a standard unit and I was wondering if I was not doing something with the HiE unit that I should be. All the units get an annual service under contract but that's essentially a cleaning, belt inspection and filter changes on the commercial units and a cleaning on the residential one. Just want to make sure I'm doing what I supposed to to keep them all running. Thanks
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