No spark / running out of ideas |
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Morfoot
Grand Poobah Joined: February-06-2004 Location: South Lanier Status: Offline Points: 5313 |
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Easy now there fella..... We may be dumb down here in the south but we ain't stupid! |
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"Morfoot; He can ski. He can wakeboard.He can cook chicken.He can create his own self-named beverage, & can also apparently fly. A man of many talents."72 Mustang "Kermit",88 SN Miss Scarlett, 99 SN "Sherman"
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Jonny Quest
Grand Poobah Joined: August-20-2013 Location: Utah--via Texas Status: Offline Points: 2870 |
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Foot: I’m from Texas and fluent in redneck...hell, I AM one.
JW
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Current
2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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Duane in Indy
Platinum Member Joined: October-26-2015 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1578 |
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As always, Ken came to the rescue. Nice job Ken. Now go put the distributor back in the wife's ride before she sees it is missing.
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Keep it as original as YOU want it
1978 Mustang (modified) |
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JDD33
Senior Member Joined: October-20-2012 Location: Natick, MA Status: Offline Points: 499 |
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One item you might want to check is your ignition switch.
Had a situation with a DUI that I installed in a buddy’s 74 SN. When he came over with the boat he forgot his key, no problem I had a spare ignition switch we installed and away we went. Installed the unit, new wires, timed it water tested it and it ran awesome. Got back to the house, unloaded the tools reconnected his ignition and away he went. Next day he went to the lake with his family and the boat ran poorly and wouldn’t start then had to get towed. Long story short.... after testing the next day the dizzy was was getting 12v in the run position, however was getting 0v in the crank and run position. Put my ignition switch back in and it’s been running like a champ for 2 years. Just a thought...
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Old school goin back to school!
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Jimscorpsewhale
Groupie Joined: January-27-2021 Location: Arkansas Status: Offline Points: 72 |
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Keno thanks for the setup pic. I got the module today and will try to get installed in the next couple of days. If it doesn’t spark I’ll try out your setup!
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Jimscorpsewhale
Groupie Joined: January-27-2021 Location: Arkansas Status: Offline Points: 72 |
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So I pulled the distributor out today and did the test as described by KENO. I had a spark. Certainly as Keno said I didn’t need any significant rpm to do it.
Couple of things. When I put the timing light on the wire when I spin the distributor I don’t get a light even when I am seeing a spark at the plug. I went back and put it on one of the cars and it worked fine... The wires are msd 8.5 mm. I had to change them when I switched to the dui. That being said I didn’t have a spark with the old set of wires and stock distributor either... I’m not sure I trust the gun.... maybe I had a spark then... I may do kenos test with the old distributor as well. I’m going to put a old plug in the number one hole and repeat the test with distributor in place and the actual plug I’m using grounded and visible to see if I have a spark with the distributor in place. Any idea why the gun doing that? Other thoughts or suggestions are highly appreciated! |
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Jonny Quest
Grand Poobah Joined: August-20-2013 Location: Utah--via Texas Status: Offline Points: 2870 |
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Bad timing light?
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Current
2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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Jimscorpsewhale
Groupie Joined: January-27-2021 Location: Arkansas Status: Offline Points: 72 |
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Just not sure why it works on the car but not the boat....
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10753 |
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What style of timing light were you using? I did the test the other day with an old light that just flashes and it flashed when the plug sparked. Then I did it with one of them new fangled digital readout advance style lights that reads RPM too...........and it wouldn't flash while spinning by hand although there was spark at the plug. Worked fine on a car, so same results you saw. I have a little backyard hack distributor machine and if the distributor was at maybe 50 rpm, then the light started flashing so it looks like something in the circuitry keeps the light in the digital timing light from flashing till some certain very low speed I'd buy a little in line spark checker that goes between the plug and the wire to make it easier to see if the plug is getting spark and crank that thing over and see if there's spark. Depending on that result, I may have a suggestion or 2 or some more questions also
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Jimscorpsewhale
Groupie Joined: January-27-2021 Location: Arkansas Status: Offline Points: 72 |
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Yeah I used one of the digital readout ones w/rpm. I think my father in law has and old style light he can bring next week. I’ll get an inline checker and report back. I was also going to put the plug wire from the boat on one of the cars and see if the gun worked there. I put a speed wrench on the distributor while we had it on the bench top setup but I’m not sure if I hit 50 rpm...
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10753 |
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If you want to hit some high speeds, sacrifice a 5/16 allen wrench and cut it so you have a straight piece that can go in the drill.
Stick that in the end of the distributor shaft and let her rip. It doesn't really matter, but run the drill in the normal forward direction and that will spin the distributor rotor in the counterclockwise direction that it turns in the engine, if you're looking down at the top of the distributor If you have the drill spinning the distributor at 500 rpm for example, that would be like the engine running at 1000 rpm since the distributor turns at half the crankshaft speed. Then you should see some flashing from the light as you speed things up I think it's safe to say the distributor works and if the only way you checked for spark was with the timing light, you should just install it, make sure the timing is roughly set close enough for it to start (#1 at about 5 to 10 degrees before TDC on compression stroke, right firing order(18456273) going CCW around the cap from the correct #1 position and crank it over with the in line spark teste( or a plug) to see if you have a spark, hopefully it starts and you then can use the light to set the timing where you want it like about 10 to 12 degrees BTDC as a good starting point and seeing if you get 32 to 34 degrees total at 3000 rpm
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Jimscorpsewhale
Groupie Joined: January-27-2021 Location: Arkansas Status: Offline Points: 72 |
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Just want to make sure I have right in my head. The rotor spins counter clockwise to 5-10 degrees btc will have the rotor cross the #1 post on the cap 5-10 degrees before the motor is a tdc. I have it lined up a tdc now so rotate the cap about 10 degrees clockwise.
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10753 |
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If you want to get 10 degrees of crankshaft advance (which is what you're wanting to do) then rotate the distributor 5 degrees clockwise.
That'll give you 10 at the crankshaft, it all has to do with the distributor on a 4 stroke engine rotating at 1/2 of the crankshaft speed.
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Jimscorpsewhale
Groupie Joined: January-27-2021 Location: Arkansas Status: Offline Points: 72 |
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I didn’t think about the 1/2 rotation speed. Thanks!
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tryathlete
Platinum Member Joined: April-19-2013 Location: Lake Villa, IL Status: Offline Points: 1797 |
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Tried to troubleshoot Quinner’s boat with a bad light. How frustrating. |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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But you got it in the end though, right Pete?
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Jimscorpsewhale
Groupie Joined: January-27-2021 Location: Arkansas Status: Offline Points: 72 |
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So I got the inline spark tester and it lights. I guess I have probably had a spark the whole time but have been chasing the wrong thing due to the timing light.
I lined the number one up with the rotor at tdc. Eyeball rolled the cap about 5 degrees counter clockwise. I don’t get anything that sounds like it’s trying to fire. I’ll get a timing light that you plugs in line instead of the inductive type. I smell gas and when I first hooked the fuel line back to the carb I had a bit of a leak so I know it’s pumping. Any thoughts? |
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tryathlete
Platinum Member Joined: April-19-2013 Location: Lake Villa, IL Status: Offline Points: 1797 |
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It has been and always will be about that toolbox. |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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My thoughts are - number 1 cylinder at TDC when dropping distributor in ? When looking at the engine from the front, number 1 cylinder is the front one on the left. Where ever the rotor points to after the distributor is seated is where your number 1 wire goes to, then follow your firing order around the cap . The other question is did you by any chance change starters since it’s last run?
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Jonny Quest
Grand Poobah Joined: August-20-2013 Location: Utah--via Texas Status: Offline Points: 2870 |
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I haven’t gone back to read every post, but perhaps the distributor is 180° out. You may want to verify that you are at top dead center (TDC) on cylinder number one on the compression stroke and then reinstall your distributor.
JQ
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Current
2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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Jimscorpsewhale
Groupie Joined: January-27-2021 Location: Arkansas Status: Offline Points: 72 |
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I believe I had it at tdc. I manually cranked it by hand with my finger in the spark plug hole. I could hear it building compression as the air leaked and it placed it at the tdc mark on the balancer. I did change starters. The distributor was in place when I made that change.
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Jonny Quest
Grand Poobah Joined: August-20-2013 Location: Utah--via Texas Status: Offline Points: 2870 |
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It’s possible that your timing marks or pointer on the harmonic balancer is off. Make sure that you are on compression stroke on number one cylinder. You can check compression stroke the same way that you did before by holding your thumb over the spark plug hole and then rotating the the engine slowly clockwise. Once you know that the piston is coming up on compression stroke, you can insert a thin dowel that is 6-8” long into the spark plug hole and then slowly rotating the engine. Make sure that the dowel is in contact with the top of the piston, as you rotate the engine slowly. When the dowel stops moving up then that means you have reached top dead center. You can then verify that your timing mark on the harmonic balancer and the indicator are also showing top dead center. I’ve seen people chase timing only to discover that the timing marks are off.
Edit: turn engine counter-clockwise if RR vs standard.
JQ
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Current
2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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I believe he has RH rotation engine, so wouldn't he want to rotate CCW looking at front of engine?
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Did you get the proper rotation starter? What direction is the engine cranking?
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10753 |
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Way back in post #1 you said you replaced the starter and a few people have asked lately "did you replace the starter?
You never really said that it's definitely the right starter though Ignoring any confusing or contradicting questions/advice about rotating things one way or the other way, answer this one question. I think you've already mentioned that the rotor goes counterclockwise, just want to verify that the starter makes it go that way.
With the distributor cap off, when you turn the key does the rotor turn clockwise or counterclockwise? That'll tell you everything you need to know as far as whether the engine is rotating the way it should be or rotating the wrong way. The rotor going Counterclockwise means it's the right starter and the engine is turning the right way. Clockwise means it'll never start cause the engine is rotating the wrong way and another correct starter might just solve your problem
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Jimscorpsewhale
Groupie Joined: January-27-2021 Location: Arkansas Status: Offline Points: 72 |
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It’s spinning counter clockwise for sure.
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10753 |
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And that's a good thing for sure
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10753 |
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A non digital inductive timing light will work with no issues. You already know the digital one you have now works when the engine is running (it's not broken) Here's a good, cheap example with a dial type knob for the advance feature in the link below. The leads are a little on the short side but it works well. Or get your father in laws oldie, it'll work for you. Maybe try a shot of gas down the carb primary throats. and see if it kicks itself over with that little boost.
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Jimscorpsewhale
Groupie Joined: January-27-2021 Location: Arkansas Status: Offline Points: 72 |
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The weather here is a mess. I’ll have a oldie timing light maybe Tuesday. I’ll report back. KENO thanks for all your help.
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10753 |
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Jim
Time for another question about fuel delivery, since you have spark Way back in post #1 of this thread you mentioned installing an Edelbrock Performer intake. Did you ditch the 1 inch PCM spacer when you mounted the carburetor to the manifold or did you keep it between the carburetor and manifold? or in other words how is the carburetor mounted to the manifold?
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