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GT40 EFI starting issue |
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JayG80 
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 Posted: July-11-2022 at 7:44pm |
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https://www.ski-it-again.com/php/skiitagain.php?endless=summer&topic=Search&category=Parts_Motor&postid=59651
This is the TFI I used in a parts throwing diagnosis episode.
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2007 Ski
2002 Ski |
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JayG80
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Posted: July-11-2022 at 7:57pm |
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2007 Ski
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KENO
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Posted: July-11-2022 at 8:48pm |
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I'll bet some of that research was from the thread linked below, which has a link to the poor man's gt40 thread and the discussion on the gray module followed shortly after by Lewy's update/correction saying that the black one was right (your CBE40 is in that list of the black ones) i Does your presently installed module have a Ford or Motorcraft number on it? If it's original it should |
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Gary S
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Posted: July-11-2022 at 8:57pm |
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I had taken that off this site years ago when people started having trouble. Now I'm not sure what's right here is what I did though- I have the Ford parts manual with their part numbers F1PZ-12A297-A is the part you need and has been superseded. Here is the compatable parts list.
Motorcraft - DY1077 (supercedes DY679, DY667, DY645) Ford - 5U2Z-12A297-D (supercedes F1PZ-12A297-A) Wells - F139 Niehoff - FF413 BWD - CBE40 Standard - LX-241 Napa Echlin - TP29 Delphi - DS10056 Transpo - FM544 Then I found this- "If in doubt about which TFI module belongs on a particular vehicle, consult the ignition system-wiring diagram for the vehicle. If the wire going to pin #4 on the EEC-IV computer comes directly from pin #4 of the TFI module, it is a CCD system. If not, it is a Push Start system." CCD stands for Computer Controlled Dwell So looking at PCM's diagram pin 4 of the module does go to pin 4 of the computer so it is a CCD system. Ford/Motorcraft CCD style TFIs are black in color. It also said alot of previous lists have the wrong part numbers including Ford's Confusing....
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Gary S
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Posted: July-11-2022 at 9:05pm |
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I pulled most of that info off of a Ford truck site,the PCM info I have here in my hand. That truck site also had this to say-
"This is discussed at length on this forum pretty much every week. Ford's documentation for the most part have the part numbers/descriptions reversed for the actual application. The aftermarket copied their info so most have the same issue. The above is correct and has been verified dozens of times". Here is another quote- "I believe all parts books are wrong including Amazon's. I need the black CCD ignition control module. Remember, if you have a 94 forward, you need a black one, no matter what anyone tells you. The grey one works (where a black one should be) just well enough to drive you crazy."
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KENO
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Posted: July-11-2022 at 9:12pm |
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You friendly with your parts guys?
Get one of each and throw them both at it and return one or both depending on your results.  You may think I'm joking but with all the conflicting info out there, it might be the best approach or the only good approach right now.
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KENO
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Posted: July-12-2022 at 7:36am |
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OK Matt
Here's some info for ya. You can click on the link below to Nautiqueparts and pretty easily read the number on the one that they sell. It's F1SF-12A297-C1A. In the poor man's gt40 thread. it's wrongly referred to as F15F numerous times, it's really F1SF. That's what came on the original version of the gt40 engine that Ford made. It was for OMC/Volvo Penta a year or 2 before PCM started using it, and in the poor man's thread there was confirmation from PCM that it was what they used. That's really an engineering number, not a part number That number has been superseded at least a couple of times over the years. It all makes me see BLACK and Motorcraft DY-1077 (and numbers like Jay mentioned earlier that cross reference to it.) I might be able to track down a friend's boat that we stuck a Motorcraft module in a number of years ago, but it's got a new owner who might not be too eager to pull parts just to see what's in there. he's no fun  After all this, it'll probably turn out that it's not your issue |
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stepper459
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Posted: July-12-2022 at 7:55am |
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I've been following this thread and I'm still curious what will happen when you disconnect the tach.
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All boats are sinking, it's just a matter of how quickly.
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KENO
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Posted: July-12-2022 at 8:07am |
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And that reminds me that you asked about disconnecting at the tach instead. It should do.(unless there's an issue with the wiring), so I'd disconnect the signal wire at the tach.
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Canuck-Surfer
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Posted: July-12-2022 at 10:14pm |
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Great news....she is running!!! I'm over the moon.
She is still has some issues which I will explain here, but first my process. 1) The TFI replacement did nothing as previously stated. 2) Disconnecting the Tach changed nothing. 3) I then disconnected the distributor plug (with the tach connected) and turned over engine. The tach started behaving normally and not pegging out. It correctly showed the cranking rpms. Of course she didn't start as there was no spark with the disty disconnected but this isolated my crazy tach behaviour. I think this is a good test for future people experiencing this. 4) While playing with the disty, I discovered the small ground wire bolted to the disty side of the alternator as slightly loose. I tightened this. Upon plugging disty back in and tightnening ground, 2 things happened....A) the crazy tach returned and B) engine started and ran for 4-5 seconds and died (which hasn't happened for 3 days now!) Subsequent cranking did not get engine to run, but this was a change. I am assuming it was because of the ground. This lead me to agree with Gary that it could be the PIP sensor or something in the disty. 5) Based on this data, I got my new spare disty (an hour's drive back home from the cottage). I changed the it out (which was a first for me. I wanted a million youtube videos and talked it through with a mechanic friend before starting). I got the new disty lined up exactly like old one (while flywheel was at dead center) and as soon as I cranked her, she started and ran!!!!! Wahooo! She died after 5 seconds, BUT started again and ran 5 secs. was able to always start even though it would die after 5 seconds. 6) I had 2 used correct black TFI's I brought from home (the new one was an incorrect grey one). I was donated the old TFI's so I have no idea their status. I plugged one of them in (with its attached heat sync) and just let it dangle and this time BOOM she started and stayed running. Idle was loping and almost died a few time but managed to stay on. 7) From this I think I had 3 issues going on. A loose ground, a bad PIP/disty, a bad TFI. 8) I took her for a test ride and had the following results: A) During WOT she died. Quickly discovered the LP fuel pump was not priming. Reached under and wiggled the pressure fit wire connector and it came on. So the boats LP fuel pump connector seems a bit too big for the new pump's stud. Not sure what to do about this? Ideas? B) While idling out into the lake worked well with a small amount of throttle, coming back in the engine died when going to idle or trying to run in gear at idle. I had to give it a little gas to keep it running. Also, the lopping continued. I am going to replace the grey TFI I bought yesterday with the correct black one, the autoparts store agreed to exchange it. Looking at the GT40 Poor Man's spreadsheet, the loping idle seems to be solved by Idle air and MAP sensor. I have a new IAC valve on the shelf (I also have a spare TPS sensor). But it didn't do this before all of this started, so why would the IAC have issues now? Is there some calibration I need to do on the IAC or idle throttle settings? Thanks so much for getting me here guys! Hopefully this experience helps others. Let me know your thoughts on these remaining issues.
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1996 Sport Nautique GT40 EFI
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JayG80
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Posted: July-12-2022 at 10:26pm |
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After your new parts are in place, I might go back and look at the timing again.
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2007 Ski
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Canuck-Surfer
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Posted: July-13-2022 at 12:31am |
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Jay,
When it first starts up she is running super smooth sounding apart from the slow up and down of the idle. I thought the ECU handled fine timing on these engines,no? I've never done timing, but I'm not opposed to learning.
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1996 Sport Nautique GT40 EFI
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KENO
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Posted: July-13-2022 at 6:49am |
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Well Matt, one thing is obvious here.
I think it's time that you be officially be declared a member in good standing of the Canadian chapter of the CCF Hoarders and Parts Swappers club Ain't it great to have a bunch of parts on the shelf that you can swap out to find your problem and fix it too? You get those people who say you have to diagnose and figure out that one part that's causing your issue, well that sounds great on paper or typing it on your computer but in real life it just doesn't happen too often especially on later fuel injected, computer controlled engines that take a whole pile of specialized equipment to "diagnose". it's nice to have a spark tester and fuel pressure gauge and timing light for getting on the right track though. Just look at all the gt40 threads where the fix came about after a whole bunch of parts swapping unless the problem was staring you right in the face. So, good job so far and .welcome to the club PS............. check the timing like mentioned. The manual tells you how. Another PS........A couple of years ago you messed with the TPS, I'd make sure that's adjusted right or dip into that parts collection and try another one.
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Canuck-Surfer
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Posted: July-13-2022 at 11:28pm |
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Okay, so I taught myself a ton about timing today. I'm stumped though. I can't get engine to run smoothly at 5 degrees at idle.
1) By adjusting distributer I was able to resolve rolling idle and get idle nice and stable. However once timing light was applied (and yes, inductor was on spark wire for CYL 1 and pointing in correct direction of plug), it read 20 degrees. I removed the grey SPOUT connector as directed but nothing changed. If I rotate distributer to bring timing down from 20 to 5 degrees, the engine died at about 10 degrees. 20 degrees was definitely the smooth idle. 2) Assuming that maybe the distributer was on the wrong tooth, I placed crankshaft on 5 BTDC mark using breaker bar and saw that rotor was not pointed directly at contact for CYL 1. I lifted distributer and moved it slightly (1 tooth I imagine) to get it to align. It was a hard start and I had to rotate distributer slightly to get idle smooth, this time it landed at 12-15 degrees for smooth idle. Engine would run at 5 degrees but very roughly. I plugged SPOUT jumper back in, set at 5 was still VERY rough. At 12-15 degrees was smooth. If I left idle set to 5 degrees (with SPOUT unpluggred) and turned throttle up to 2000 rpms it would smooth out a bit. If I adjusted distributer while at 2000 rpm to 12-15 degrees the engine would get smoother and RPMs would increase. Likewise, if I have disty set to 12-15 degrees at 2000 and then rotated it to 5 degrees, the rpms would drop from 2000 down to about 1600. From there if I pulled back to idle slowly it would stay started albeit with loping idle, but if I pulled back normally, engine would die. Should base timing set at 5 degrees per the service manual run so roughly and even die occasionally at idle? All tests above were done with warm engine. I'm completely new to this timing thing. I am a fast learner, lay it on me, what am I missing here? |
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1996 Sport Nautique GT40 EFI
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Canuck-Surfer
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Posted: July-13-2022 at 11:34pm |
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Ps...
I've set the rotor based off of the removed disty position. Is it possible that the disty is 180 degrees off on CYL 1? I tried to use my finger (with 2 rubber gloves on) to plug CYL 1 spark hole while rotating engine with breaker bar to 5 BTDC per a comment on PlanetNautique. Engine was too hot to push hard enough to feel if air escaped my finger. I'll try this test again in the morning with a cold engine. Will I feel air sucking in or pushing out when it is aligned at TDC at CYL 1?
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1996 Sport Nautique GT40 EFI
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MrMcD
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Posted: July-13-2022 at 11:35pm |
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I guess now that the distributor has been messed with you should verify that you really did set this to fire on the #1 cylinder. Only way to do that with everything assembled is to remove the #1 spark plug and as you crank it over by hand feel for compression. As the compression starts building it will move your finger off of the #1 plug hole. At this point watch the timing marks till they align perfectly at TDC or even 5* if that is your goal. Now pull the dist cap and see where your rotor is pointing. It should be straight at your #1 wire location on the cap. The GT 40 EFI engine is electronically controlled so you may need special instructions to properly set timing but once set the computer takes care of your timing. Some have a wire you disconnect before setting base timing, you will need to read and see what the GT40 is looking for you to do.
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Canuck-Surfer
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Posted: July-13-2022 at 11:43pm |
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I added a second comment while you were writing your reply. I tried to do what you recommend but engine was too hot to keep my finger on. I will try in the morning with engine cold and verify I'm set to CYL1 at TDC or 5. Manual states 5 degrees with grey SPOUT jumper removed to turn off ECU's timing control/spark advance.
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1996 Sport Nautique GT40 EFI
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Canuck-Surfer
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Posted: July-13-2022 at 11:45pm |
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Also, Thank Ken for the encouragement. Its been frustrating at times, but now that I actually have the engine running again, this is fun to learn some more about engine timing.
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1996 Sport Nautique GT40 EFI
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JayG80
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Posted: July-14-2022 at 3:43am |
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I had a friend help me years back setting my new distributor after my pip went bad.. He is a professional car tuner.
As I recall, we used a timing light and started a 5* but it was rough. He turned the dizzy until it was smooth and called it good. Not sure of final degree reading but it wasn’t 5* anymore. Recall opening and closing spout but not sure if there was any change doing so. Put 200 more hours on the engine and sold that boat or else I would check it again for timing. That was my only experience so I leave further insight to those with more expertise.
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2007 Ski
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KENO
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Posted: July-14-2022 at 8:22am |
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180 degrees out and a running engine is impossible Air will be pushing out as you approach TDC on the compression stroke. As the piston rises from the bottom of it's stroke up to TDC, it's blowing air out the whole time. If you don't feel like turning a wrench and stretching over to the #1 plug hole at the same time, lightly stuff a piece of cloth in the hole instead of your finger and it'll blow the cloth out on the approach and then you continue rotating until you have your timing marks lined up.
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stepper459
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Posted: July-14-2022 at 10:06pm |
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If it makes you feel any better, a few years ago when I had a GT-40 rebuilt, I was up late one night reassembling it and trying to get timing dialed in. I read and re-read the instructions in the service manual, disconnected the SPOUT connector as you mentioned, and still I couldn't get it to match the specifications. I don't remember which way, or what it was that I set it to, but I set it so it ran well and left it alone for the rest of the time I owned that boat. I never looked back.
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All boats are sinking, it's just a matter of how quickly.
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Canuck-Surfer
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Posted: July-14-2022 at 11:52pm |
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So I got some help today with my buddy's grandad who rebuilt engines for 40 years. He is a guru. He verified all of my work and agreed that we had dissy aligned properly. We could not get 5 BTDC to work to save our lives. He said he has seen it before. As a 26 year old engine, the timing marks on cranshaft my not be correct. We had it purring at 15-20 degrees at idle. We are going to leave it there like others have commented.
Went for a test ride after engine was hot. Next issue, as soon as you put her in gear, she stalls. After several stalls I figured out that if I put her in gear really quicly and get some throttle I could get her in gear without the stall. After WOT for 10 minutes she did get a bit better but still almost stalled when going into gear. Thoughts on this?
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1996 Sport Nautique GT40 EFI
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KENO
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Posted: July-15-2022 at 7:11am |
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I guess my question would be ............if you set timing at 5 degrees with the spout connector removed and it runs bad, then you plug the connector back in, does the timing stay at 5 or does it go up to 20 and run smooth?
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Canuck-Surfer
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Posted: July-15-2022 at 10:42am |
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No. There is absolutely no difference with the spout connector in or out. I have a suspicion that the spout connecter is shorted somewhere hence why I am getting almost 20° regardless of the status of the spout connecter.
Any points on the stalling when I go into gear? What were you setting the TPS help with that? |
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1996 Sport Nautique GT40 EFI
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JayG80
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Posted: July-15-2022 at 11:05am |
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What about plugging in a OBD1 code reader? Bunch of them on eBay. |
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KENO
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Posted: July-15-2022 at 11:59am |
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When the connector is removed there's an open in the circuit between the TFI module and the computer and timing won't change.
With it in the circuit is complete and the computer will vary timing with signals it gets from all the various sensors So............with your timing at 20 degrees and the Spout connector installed,, if you rev the engine in neutral does the timing change or if you check the timing under load out on the lake does the timing change or is it always at 20 degrees, (for example if you're 3000 rpm down the lake, what's your timing advance?) I mentioned the TPS since you changed it a while back and if it's not adjusted right, the computer won't think the throttle blades are closed. The big manual has testing info.
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Canuck-Surfer
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Posted: July-21-2022 at 1:22am |
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Ken, sorry for late reply…
1) Spout prolly IS working because when it’s plugged in, and rpm pushed up to 3000 the timing advances. Our guess is that the harmonic balancer has shifted of the years. Which also concerns me…since the HB externally balances the engine, is the engine balance off and what are the long term implications of that? 2) plugged up OBD1 and had TPS no voltage errors. Put new tps sensor on and errors went away AND stalling issue vanished. Yay! 3) see my other post, but I heard ticking sound on port side of engine. Did a dark nighttime viewing test and found a huge arc from breached spark wire. Also saw light/flicker under each plug boot. Wires and plugs are pcm from skidim and practically new (28 hrs). Think this caused the dizzy/pip issues? What would be root cause? I don’t want to just replace wires and it happen again. Google search on issue points to possible incorrect plug gapping. I need to get some plug wires asap to save the weekend. Can’t get from skidim that fast. Is it okay to get automotive ones…will they reach? What truck model/yr to look up? 93 f150 5.8? |
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1996 Sport Nautique GT40 EFI
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KENO
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Posted: July-21-2022 at 6:19am |
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I have this song stuck in my head...............well really just a line or 2
Dizzy, I'm so dizzy my head is spinning..................Tommy Roe 1969 How about a quick recap of things It sounds like the engine is running OK, timing advances like it should, the starting issues are gone and you have some "spark in the wrong place" issues. Using automotive wire is just fine. If the parts place has a universal wire kit that you install the ends on the distributor end of the wires, you can make your own. There's plenty of excess wire length in the kits so you'll be shortening the wires. Otherwise it's kinda a crap shoot because the automotive wires are generally routed differently because of different exhaust manifold design and are shorter. Maybe somebody can tell you what they used for a premade set Maybe the wire was touching the exhaust manifold and burned through. If you're desperately wanting to save the weekend, just replace the bad wire and put some dielectric grease on the plugs/boots. I don't know how you Canucks are, but an American backyard hack might tape up the offending wire and use it for the next handful of years If you really think the balancer has shifted, read about finding true TDC on Google and if you decide you're replacing it, there's a Ford part number cast into the balancer that you can use to find another one. You'll have a 4 bolt balancer (4 bolt holes for the pulley to mount to the balancer). They come in different thicknesses, have TDC marked in different locations depending on the application and pointer location on the engine so you want something that is an exact cross reference to that ford number So......... let's have that recap |
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Canuck-Surfer
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Posted: August-21-2022 at 10:47pm |
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Okay guys, for the long awaited recap.
GT40 engine was rebuilt 2 years ago. Engine still only had about 28 hours at begining of summer as I've been working on rest of the restoration. One morning it just wouldn't start (hence this thread). After a lot of part swapping, I got it going again with a new distributor (cardone rebuilt from RockAuto WITH cast iron gear). That got the engine running but it still had issues staying cranked. Ran codes on my Innova Ford ECC IV reader and found a no voltage on TPS. Replaced TPS and boom, would remain started. Then had weird sounds that turned out to be 3 badly burned spark wires on port side. They were up against the manifold and 1 was cracked all the way around and had arced so much to the block there was a divot. Replaced wires with custom cut kit and filled everything ;) with dielectric grease. Engine would now run but there was a bad loping/hunting idle that would sometimes result in a stall. Replaced MAP, IACV, PCV, Fuel Reg (and TFI was replaced earlier). Nothing would solve issue. Looked for vacuum leaks (during bad loping, with a vaccum gauge teed off fuel pressure reg, it would be in green when over 900 rpms of lope and almost 0 at low end.) But no evidence of vacuum leak. In the middle of all this, while just "living with" the loping idle, battery would not turn over engine and had to get towed in on 2 occasions. Turned out the AWG 2 battery cables were badly corroded and were not allowing alternator to charge the battery. Could wiggle the cable to short the connection. Replaced with AWG 0 marine tinned cables. I had swapped out my ECU with my spare when troubleshooting the no-start issue. Once starting was resolved I put the original ECU back. While trying to resolve the loping idle, I kept thinking I had already tried replacing ECU, but realized today I only replaced it during no-start diag. So today I swapped out my ECU and boom, loping idle resolved! It still lopes hot by about 25-50 rpm but nothing compared to what it had been doing (300-400 rpm). Its been frustrating but I have learned a heap along the way. I feel like I have a much better understanding of more intermediate engine working and diagnostics. A few notes to others reading this in the future. 1) when you replace a TPS sensor, you MUST follow the instructions to adjust it. My new sensor was defaulted to 0.79 volts when it needed to be 0.96-0.98v. Also, it was pretty difficult to back probe the TPS plug (either one). I tried 3 sets of multimeter probes. Ended up buying a back probe needle/pin kit from Amazon and was finally able to get a reading. 2) IAC valve obviously needs to be tight but since the throttle body is aluminum you can easily over tighten. I did and striped the top bolt. Its holding with no leak but I imagine I will need to tap it to next size up and get a new screw. I still have 2 remaining issues that I am going to start a new thread on since they go well outside the original context of this no-start thread. I've developed a moderate engine vibration that can be felt in boat, throttle and steering wheel. Also, I still can only get timing to 10-12 TDC, not the 5 it should. I suspect I have a harmonic balancer that has shifted. Anyhoo...look for the new threads about some questions I have with those issues. Again, thanks to everyone who has help out here!!!!!! |
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1996 Sport Nautique GT40 EFI
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MrMcD
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Posted: August-21-2022 at 11:31pm |
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There are two companies, both near Redding CA, (maybe Anderson CA), the companies both rebuild dampers for the engine. One company is Damper Dudes, the other is Damper Doctor. They take your damper and remove the rubber, clean the damper and reapply new rubber and your old damper is like brand new. The rubber is what absorbs vibration, over time the old rubber gets hard and eventually some dampers fail. The outer ring can slip or even come off in bad cases. They ship dampers all over the United States and are well known to do a professional job. About 25 years ago I understand two partners in this business had a tiff. They split and each started running their own business. I can't say if either company is better, they both have good reputations and supply dampers to many companies to sell as rebuilt dampers.
If you are concerned about yours maybe wait till the season is over and ship yours in for a rebuild. In the Classic Car industry many owners are very concerned about using exact OEM parts or Matching OEM parts so rebuilt dampers have a demand that hopefully keeps these guys in business. Glad you are getting this figured out. Mark
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JayG80 wrote: