A buffalo’s first bowtie |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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If you are going to use roller rockers don't order your push rods a head of time, you need to get an adjustable push rod length gauge to determine the correct length very critical on this type of rockers. Look on Comps Cams web site and they have an article on how to check it. Or do a search hear I posted the link once on a thread here
doesn't make much since to use roller lifters with out roller rockers. basically what you do is use die makers ink on the tip of the valve rotate the crank a couple of times and the roller will leave a mark on the valve stem and you want the mark to be perfectly center on the valve stem. You just keep repeating the process until you have it correct then read the length on the gauge and order the push rods. |
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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Thanks Chris...I'll ask the shop while I'm writing the check this morning if I can borrow one!
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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you need to now about what length you need first. It's not a one size fits all they are usually in .500" increments.
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21186 |
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1/2" Chris? Isnt that a little big?
Not sure how close he needs to be on pushrod length- the BBC will have the adjustable stud-mount rockers, no? Buffalo, very cool on keeping it RH. Is the custom grind a little warmer than stock? |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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push rod length checkers
the type of stud has no bearing what so ever. That only effects how it adjust the pre-load of the lifter. Read the article on comp cams and you'll understand. |
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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Time out! Trouble again. The part # I put up before is for a chain driven cam, not my gear drive. I'm waiting for a call again, but the price is expected to go up?!!?
It is a warmer cam, but not a hot one. We'll see... |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21186 |
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I understand the concept. You tighten the nuts a certain amount past zero lash to set the proper preload. Exactly where zero lash occurs is dependant on the pushrod length, yes? My understanding is that you dont need to get the pushrod length/rocker height exact with the stud mount (like you do with the pedestals) because the stud mount makes the valvetrain fully adjustable. Obviously, youll want them close- but exact isnt necessary. Am I way off on this one? |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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Not way off but there are two variables in play the pivot point, and the pushrod height. You need to adjust the two to get not only the proper preload but also the proper roller position on the valve stem. If you have a fixed pushrod height then you can adjust the pivot point to get the right preload but if rocker is already tilted back too far towards the pushrod side because of a short pushrod then the roller end is likely to be on the edge of the valve stem towards the rocker. Too long a push rod could also side load the valve. If you want your seals and guides to last you need to both adjustments right so that your roller is traveling back and forth on a path that is centered in the middle of the valve stem. Its all a PIA and you need both adjustments to get it perfect, one will get you working good enough most of the time. If your converting to roller lifters they are typically significantly taller than the flat tappet, non standard heads and valves can also make a huge difference. My 408 ended up with pushrods almost an inch shorter than stock no amount of adjusting on the studs would have helped that. |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21186 |
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That makes perfect sense. But like I said, you just have to be close, right? With your different heads and lifters, 1" difference is pretty extreme and I can see the need for new pushrods. You dont have to be as precise with the PR length as if you were to try to set the proper preload with some pedestal mounts without shimming, correct? I would guess that +/-.050" would be close enough- though youll want to check where the tips contact the valvestems to be safe. |
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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Guys, I got my call back and don't know what to do. I was prepared to spend a lttle too much on this, but not way too much. Here's the thing...the pressed on gear drive system that I have apparently hasn't been used in some time. At least 1 cam company would be happy to start from scratch on my cam...for $2500 and that's just too much. I can get a flat tappet cam that will fit the gear drive, but I really wanted to go roller. I can also get a roller cam for ~$1300 mentioned before...but this is only for a chain drive though, and would reverse the cam rotation.
There has to be a good solution for this?!!? |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21186 |
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Like I said before, if it were me, id go with a good flat tappet. I assume it would be easier to spin the cam backwards with a chain (like a Ford) rather than getting a custom gear-gear cam.
If you absolutely have to have roller (at +$1000 make sure youre sure), whats wrong with the chain driven? A regular BBC timing set (chain and gear) should work just fine. |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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there are gobs of dual engine 454 setups in all the penis extensions, um I mean sport boats made by baja, checkmate, cigarette, etc dont they have opposing rotations these days?
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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Nevermind, I just remembered those guys can reverse the drive direction...
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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I haven't done the pricing and probably don't know the details, but I'm thinking at this point to change rotation(sorry Tim) on the engine and flip the pump as Eric suggested to keep the RH drive. The parts cost for the standard(LH) conversion kit is more like $700-$1000 I think. This would mean I switch to a timing chain and then my distributer is going to be backwards.
I'm all ears guys...good thing I have the winter! |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21186 |
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Buffalo, that wont work. The 1:1 tranny can spin in either direction, but it MUST spin in the same direction of the motor. If you go with a LH motor, you have to turn a LH prop. If there are chain drive reverse rotation 454's out there, then there will be reverse cut distributor gears out there as well. If its like the Ford, the rest can be reused. |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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Just to clarify, when you change the direction of the engine and flip the pump it doesnt reverse the direction of the propellor to the original direction it just makes it so the transmission will still work. Forward will be in the direction the engine turns and reverse will be opposite. Long story short you need a new propellor and a new starter. Your new setup would have a standard timing chain setup and your original ignition could be used after changing plug wire order. You will need to flip over your RWP as well.
Your circ pump and alternator should make it in the opposite direction. I have done this before and will talk you through it if you decide to go this way. |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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Dammit Tim
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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Yep, I remember the talk about the 1:23 Got it.
I guess I may not get what I want then. I really want to keep the RH prop rotation, and I really wanted to go roller. Like oil and water...they may not mix short of the high dollar cam. I'll keep digging; I don't give up easily! |
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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If my best choice turns out to be the flat tappet cam as earlier suggested, should I stay with factory specs?
Thanks |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21186 |
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Never |
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87BFN owner
Grand Poobah Joined: August-25-2006 Location: Saline, MI Status: Offline Points: 2194 |
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Eric,
How much is a complete 1.23 tranny? |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21186 |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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I'm sure if you keep an eye on e-bay you can find a 1.23:1 or Eric will be able to work an acceptable deal on one.
Tim as far as the roller rockers it has to be exact or you trash the valves, seals guides everything it's not a +/- this or that. You have to measure the lifters to get the correct preload. That means you have to adjust the preload until the lifter set for the push rod is depress a certain amount .050" I believe, then you check the rollers path on top of the valve tip so that it is exactly center. read up TIm this is the second time I've posted it for you |
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87BFN owner
Grand Poobah Joined: August-25-2006 Location: Saline, MI Status: Offline Points: 2194 |
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$1600 plus shipping that's rough, Eric is it possible to do any better than that price?
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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That plus the $700-$1000 LH roller conversion, a LH prop, etc... The $2500 cam is cheaper than that and I think I remember Eric saying that the BW was the tougher of the trannys...or at least that the 1.23 didn't like water. |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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Have you called and Talked to Comp Cams about a custom ground roller cam?
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21186 |
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From what Eric has said, the BW does sound like the stronger tranny. Its parts are also significantly cheaper, so thats a bonus. The 1.23 is plenty strong, though- PCM put them behind the 430hp 502 Pythons. With their aluminum cases, the PCM trannies wont like water. Id stick with the BW since you have already have one thats freshly rebuilt. Im not convinced roller is the way to go. Of course it would be nice, but the advantages sure dont outweight the cost- especially since your prime goal is reliability. You could rebuild that motor several times over with the money you would save by keeping it RH rotation with a flat tappet cam. |
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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They are the one's who will be happy to start from scratch for ~$2500. That would be the gear driven roller cam for my RH set up. I've also talked to crane and lsm. |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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What about that other company Cam research, Cam dynamics or something like that, that someone maybe tim brought up a while back. Don't remember the exact name sorry.
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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Cam Research... Those guys are Ford Only wont touch no bowtie |
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