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jmesser 
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Joined: March-20-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 84 |
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 Topic: Fish Nautique- MesserPosted: September-26-2021 at 3:04pm |
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Well. I stepped into it again. A 1986 Fish Nautique fell in my lap. It is rough. I'm not completely unfamiliar with these inboards as I have had 3 other Fish Nautiques, an 87 Ski Nautique, a Mastercraft and American Skier over the years. Most have had the 351PCB with a BW 1:1. So this one came to me without the advantage of seeing it run.
--Boat Stats- 1986 351 PCM (PLD-PR-L10) Firing order 13726548 PCM 40 Trans (1,0:1.0) Everything tells me this is a LH or standard rotation engine However, the prop (looking from the rear) spins clockwise. How did I get here today. Well, I grabbed a new battery. Hooked everything up and get a click. Sounds like the starter. So I pulled it. Ran the numbers. Its not a marine starter, but rather a N613160B which comes back at O'Reilly's as a standard Ford starter (read- not counter rotation). So I have to assume someone has been monkeying around and not using marine components first... The plug wires have numbers written on them which also tells me someone's been monkeying around. My big question- is there any chance the PCM 40 1:1 tranny spins opposite of the engine?
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Johnnie Messer
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Gary S
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Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Posted: September-26-2021 at 4:34pm |
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That is exactly what it does. Reverse rotation engines were getting expensive/difficult to source. The trans was used to so that regular rotation engines could then be used but the reverse rotation prop let the boat ride level
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jmesser
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Posted: September-26-2021 at 5:18pm |
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Thank you Gary!... Not sure if you remember me, but we have spoken on here many times over the years. To be honest, you have advised me when I can't figure stuff out. I appreciate ya!... I am going to start posting just to data log my experience...
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Johnnie Messer
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jmesser
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Posted: September-26-2021 at 5:38pm |
 Fish Nautique, 1986, 351PCM LH, PCM 40 Trans. So it's a project... Pretty rough shape. I started this weekend on her. Basically cleaning out years of pinestraw and critter stuff. ... Most of the latches and such were dismantled as someone was attempting to restore her. So I fixed some of that as well. I put power to het but failed at turnover and cranking due to a bad starter which sent me down a road of "what rotation" do I have. ... Concluding the engine is a standard (LH) rotation and the PCM40 trans redirects the shaft to spin CW from the stern. ...anyway, I will post progress and questions for the experts here. If anyone knows anything about this Fish please let me know.  |
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Johnnie Messer
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GottaSki
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Posted: September-26-2021 at 6:12pm |
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But, Is the engine level?
Pcm 40a reverses rotation with 1.23ish:1 ratio and levels the engine Pcm40i is 1:1 and preserves engine rotation If the engine is at shaft angle, it's the latter |
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
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Gary S
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Posted: September-26-2021 at 6:47pm |
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Very good point Tom,and I should know better- my Nautique has a 1:1 PCM,the vdrive does the reversing and the reduction, Sorry John. Being an 86 it most likely is a RR anyway, Ken will tell you to pull the distributor to check
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KENO
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Posted: September-26-2021 at 8:01pm |
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Ken would say it's a PCM 40 I (1 to 1 ratio) and it doesn't reverse rotation so you seem to have a mismatched group of pieces there, maybe just the prop..
From your tag P Pleasurecraft L Left Hand rotation (normal automotive) D 351 Ford P Pleasurecraft transmission R reverse gear, means nothing more than the transmission has a forward and reverse gear (other letters could be S for stern drive or V for V drive or J for jet drive and you don't have any of those things) L Left hand prop rotation 10 1 to 1 transmission ratio Like Gary said I'd say, to find the engine rotation for sure, pull the distributor and look at the teeth on the gear. If they slant like this \\\\\\\\\\ it's reverse rotation and like this ///////// would be normal LH rotation. Or you could pull the distributor cap so you're looking at the rotor and turn the engine over with a 15/16ths socket and ratchet on the front crankshaft bolt while watching the rotor. In your case having what seems to be a normal rotation engine, if you rotate the engine clockwise when looking from the front, the rotor should turn counterclockwise. (clockwise from the front is normal rotation) Just remember, if you're turning clockwise from the front, that's counterclockwise from the rear Basically, whichever direction you have to turn the engine to make the rotor spin counterclockwise is it's correct direction of rotation. Some transmissions have equally strong forward and reverse gears and you can use the reverse side to drive it forward by changing the way the cable hooks to the throttle controller, but your 40 I is not built that way. Reverse is a lot weaker. A Hurth ZF45A is one example of a transmission that can handle 100% power in forward or reverse In your case, if the PO was using reverse to go forward, it won't last very long. With the engine off you could shift the throttle controller into forward and then look at the selector lever at the transmission and see if it's in forward or reverse. If the lever is in reverse, then that's what he did. If it's in forward, then the prop would be wrong. Put it in forward and take a picture of the shift lever on the transmission This might be confusing so I'd read it at least a couple of times anyways
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jmesser
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Posted: October-10-2021 at 10:04pm |
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Thank you guys! I'm back on it.... KENO- I appreciate all that. I got the Covid and haven't been back to look at her until yesterday (before I jumped on here to read the comments so I will check on the trans tomorrow).
- I did receive this boat not running.... -After a battery charge and hook up- click or cathunka -Put a new battery, just because I wanted one, and to see if the lack of juice could be a problem- no change -Since I was single handed, I couldn't feel around while turning the key, so I went and got a new starter- no change -With my son in laws help I could feel and tell the solenoid was clicking- bought new- Turns over great! Side note- oil check golden/newer *Next issue- no fuel at the carb while moving the linkage -Removed floor boards- fuel line not hooked up but new. Had a priming bulb on it with newer line PO obviously trying to prime the fuel system. -Followed the fuel line to the "new" fuel filter (glass bowl with release for water) not mounted - Continued to follow the line to the fuel pump- line not hooked up- hooked it up and put a clamp on it. - Tossed the priming bulb and hooked up the line to the tank pick up. - Primed the carb with fuel- Started right up. A lot of black initially in the exhaust, but cleared up quickly. *Next issue- cooling system .... ugly -I tore out the flush plumbing because it was garbage. - Installed new hose from hull intake to the trans cooler -All new hoses on top -New impeller (old one was fine though) -Restarted using a 5 gallon bucket Gauges- OIl Pressure 40PSI, Temp 120, Volts 13ish I did have a slight tick on the port side, maybe a valve adjustment. May work out with some run time. Have a look at the progress below- |
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Johnnie Messer
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jmesser
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Posted: October-12-2021 at 5:54pm |
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Trans lever- when the cable is shifted in fwd, the lever is up. When shifting to reverse, the lever is down. Sorry no pix as the cable snapped shortly after (it was due).
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Johnnie Messer
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KENO
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Posted: October-12-2021 at 6:46pm |
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Up is forward down and back is reverse, so the throttle/shifter was set right.
If you run the engine and shift the lever by into Forward by hand since the cable is broken, does the shaft turn? Choice number 1 would be yes it turns the same direction as the engine meaning it's pump is indexed correctly, and your RH propeller is the only issue. Choice number 2 would be that the shaft doesn't turn at all which means the pump is indexed wrong and the transmission doesn't work because the pump isn't building any pressure. Let's hope for choice number 1 If number 2 is the answer, it means pulling the transmission will be needed so you can re index the pump to match the engine rotation
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jmesser
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Posted: October-13-2021 at 5:00pm |
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Thanks Keno.. I will check when I'm home. We are headed to Cape May NJ to get my daughter from Coast Guard boot camp!
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Johnnie Messer
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jmesser
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Posted: October-13-2021 at 5:02pm |
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I'm sure I will soon pull the PCM and get a BW and put in. I really want the prop to turn left hand going forward.
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Johnnie Messer
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jmesser
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Posted: November-11-2021 at 2:03pm |
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OK fellas, I'm back at it . The question remains-
1. What is the confirmed engine rotation? 2. What is the trans rotation? 3. The prop as mounted should spin clockwise in forward, is that right? Conclusion 1- video one (1) shows the engine spins clockwise looking from the front. video one (1) shows the rotor turning counter clockwise So we have concluded without a doubt this is a standard or left hand rotating engine. Video 1 attached/linked (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcTXAM5Na0M) Conclusion 2 - video two (2) shows me pulling the shift lever of the PCM 40 1:1 up first and the shaft spinning counterclockwise looking from the rear. Then I push it down and it spins clockwise looking from the rear. (note- I have had a few inboards and reverse always has the extra "whiny" noise, and this sounds the same). So I think it is safe to conclude this PCM 40 1:1 does in fact spin counter clockwise or left handed as looking from the rear- same rotation as the engine. Attached/linked video 2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0SPgUc0dxM) 2nd video is my daughters iphone, not great quality, but it shows when I pull up on the trans lever, the shaft spins counter clockwise. It spins clockwise on the down lever. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXSqSodiPA4) Conclusion 3- the prop is on backwards. I know I am over thinking this, but I find it hard to believe someone put a prop on backwards. All I can imagine is the PO took so much apart and then put some things quickly back together when he decided to sell and may have over looked this. Thoughts from the crowd?
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Johnnie Messer
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Jonny Quest
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Posted: November-11-2021 at 4:35pm |
This quote from KenO tells you what you need to know. The metal tag on the engine states: PLD PR L10. So, unless someone switched engine tags, or put in a new engine with a different rotation, your engine is a LEFT rotation (as seen from the rear of the engine). The propeller output shaft from the transmission is a LEFT rotation as well. The PCM transmission is a 1:1 ratio and does NOT change rotation. Assuming that the transmission is indexed properly, the prop should spin COUNTER-clock-wise in forward (when viewed from the rear of the boat). As KenO also stated, the rotor in the distributor will turn COUNTER-clock-wise, regardless of engine rotation. So...if the rotor is turning clock-wise, then you have the wrong starter or the wrong distributor gear. The engine won't run, however, if the distributor is running backwards. JQ
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2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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KENO
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Posted: November-11-2021 at 5:08pm |
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From one guy in the crowd............it's the wrong prop, it's not on backwards
Because of the taper, it can't go on backwards, but I think you know that. Everything in your videos says the engine is normal LH rotation, since it runs that way Since it runs and it turns the shaft left, the transmission is indexed correctly also. A LH prop of whatever size you need like a 14 by 10 or 11 as a guess and you'll be in business.
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jmesser
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Posted: November-11-2021 at 8:12pm |
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Yes sir, I appreciate the back up look. I tend to overthink these things. I have no idea what the previous owner was thinking as almost everything was disassembled at some level when I got it. The prop threw me off and got me thinking he may have thrown any ol engine tag back on it... But after an exhaustive excursion of putting the parts I found in boxes and such back where they are supposed to go.... I think I have the story. She's a lefty, with a lefty trans and should have a lefty prop that I will start sourcing soon.
...today I attempted to figure out some of the the wiring... My goodness, nothing worked. About 10 wires went to the ignition switch... So, I have figured out the bilge pump and wired it correctly. It now works via float switch all times and then also switched for use when battery is on. I'll get to the Nav Lights next. ...and then the other 15million wires that do nothing, ahhh carambah... But she did run for over an hour on the bucket purring smoothly today.
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Johnnie Messer
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jmesser
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Posted: November-21-2021 at 10:17pm |
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A little more progress.. Good ol time spent with a rag just wiping years of gunk off the engine. These engines are so good to look at, why do some never clean them... Anyway, the previous owners..., well, I'm not sure what they were thinking. So many out of whack issues here. The wiring, after an in depth investigation, is jacked. Main harness has wires cut out so tight to the plug that they are no use anymore. Thousands of wires going nowhere, nothing worked.... So I have removed most of the useless afterthought wires. Re-wired the bilge pump so it works as it is supposed to (float all time, and switched with battery selector). Pulled the fuel sending unit, got it working, wired it correctly so that the gauge and backlight now works. Blower working, but will have to clean up the wire mess. Throttle and Shift cables were shot, both replaced. Adjustments kicked my tail, but I think I have them right.
Problem at hand next work session- find the Nav Light wires. I can see them from the light socket, but once they go into the foam, I cannot relocate them. I may have to do a complete re-wire on those. I did have two wires I have yet to ID. They are brown and orange. I traced the orange form a switch panel going to the wiring harness then cut off past the connect. The brown wire was in a fuse block going to nada, also traced back to the harness and cut just past the connect. Searching wiring diagrams as we speak.
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Johnnie Messer
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jmesser
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Posted: November-21-2021 at 10:26pm |
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Johnnie Messer
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KENO
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Posted: November-22-2021 at 6:14am |
No help on the wiring, but you must get tired from twirling the wing nut on that extra looong stud for the flame arrestor
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jmesser
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Posted: November-22-2021 at 2:00pm |
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Ha! Shortly after I took the pic I introduced it to a cutting wheel
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Johnnie Messer
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GottaSki
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Posted: November-22-2021 at 2:03pm |
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Yeah good, it looked ready to impale someone!
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
River Rat to Mole |
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jmesser
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Posted: December-15-2021 at 8:28pm |
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Johnnie Messer
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jmesser
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Posted: December-15-2021 at 8:39pm |
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I would like to upload some pix, but I see there are problems...
Rudder- so the Fish Nautique has a 1.5" ruder shaft. I just watched Ron Tanis on a video rebuilding one in an American Skier. However, he doesn't sell 1.5" seals. Any idea where I can get a rudder rebuild kit for the Fish Nautique?
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Johnnie Messer
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jmesser
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Posted: January-09-2022 at 9:07pm |
 Progress- Removed the tank so I can get to the rudder and rebuild. Also pulled other items like the battery box so I can pull the shaft and put in a new log, packing and cutlass bearings. Absolutely filthy. So here it is after hours of vacuums , scrubbing and washing.
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Johnnie Messer
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jmesser
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Posted: January-09-2022 at 9:19pm |
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Random observation- I have scoured the sites for an image of a 1986 Fish Nautique inside aft. My 86 FN has a different floor design as well as a larger gunnel than the 87. Does anyone know if the 86 was a one off year? Since the virus removed a bunch of the brochures, I don't have a 85 to gauge it by.
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Johnnie Messer
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jmesser
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Posted: January-09-2022 at 9:26pm |
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And my final request for information tonight... Hopefully the pix don't rotate again. Inside the bilge I have two fittings I need help with. 1. Is obviously a depth sounder (I am almost positive). If you look, the cable remains and could feasibly be reconnected. Does anyone have any info on the head unit, or could this possibly be a universal transponder that I could splice back into? Any further insight would be appreciated. **on the underdside this is the arrow shaped part** 2. On the inside of the bilge the second highlighted part is odd. From the underisde it is a thru hull. Weird. Any ideas what it is or was?  |
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Johnnie Messer
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jmesser
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Posted: February-26-2022 at 11:32am |
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It was on backwards, unreal!
Propeller status- got the prop off, with a lot of persuasion. And, if you can believe it, it was on backwards. Now that I have gotten up close and personal under the hull, I realize the prop was further back with the castle nut, no pin. I don't think the PO hammered it on, but he tightened the heck out of it. Pix show- 14 x 11 x 1-1/8 Lcup The shaft looks ok, but I would love to hear from the experts. ....Image upload has become too troublesome. Am I the only person that is having this issue? They were working at one point.
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Johnnie Messer
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KENO
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Posted: February-26-2022 at 6:48pm |
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Johnnie
Last time I tried to put a 1 1/8 inch taper bore prop on a 1 1/8 tapered shaft like you have, it was physically impossible to even get the hole in the prop started on the taper. It fits over the threads but not onto the taper. That was about 15 minutes ago so it's pretty fresh in my mind You and a pile of other people have problems with pictures on this site. Like in your case, what worked one day, may take multiple tries with various different error messages Here's a picture of your prop from earlier in the thread. Not the clearest, but at least in this picture it looks like a normal older RH rotation prop that slid up the shaft to where it should be.  If you e mail the pictures to keno439@ gmail.com, I'll try to post them here for ya' |
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jmesser
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Posted: February-27-2022 at 10:02pm |
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Does the L cup not mean Left rotation. Or did I make a big assumption?
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Johnnie Messer
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jmesser
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Posted: February-27-2022 at 10:11pm |
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Shined up a bit
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Johnnie Messer
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KENO wrote: