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What do my plugs say?

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    Posted: June-14-2007 at 11:46am
In the process of trying to fix my sputtering problem, I changed my plugs. When I pulled them they seemed a little overly black, and there was noticable oil on the threads.

These plugs were installed last spring by the boat mechanics. They are one step hotter than the stock 24s. The plugs have maybe 50 hours on them. The engine is an 89 PCM 351, and has 750+ hours on it. The engine was run the day before I pulled the plugs while I set the timing.

I don't really know how to read plugs. What do they say?

Jared



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boat dr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-14-2007 at 1:29pm
They say AC Delco goes in a GM, Autolite plugs for FoMoCo engines.
other than that , it appears they are oil soaked, the oil film on the treads, and possible rich condition also.
float level too high,choke not opening.
Run a compression test,looks like it needs to see a Doctor.............boar dr    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-14-2007 at 6:37pm
you really need a shot of the inside of the tip not a side profile. The oil on the threads could be from a leaky valve cover anti-seaz.

lots of carbon, very rich running motor but does need autolite plugs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sjpitts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-14-2007 at 9:52pm
Originally posted by boat dr boat dr wrote:

They say AC Delco goes in a GM, Autolite plugs for FoMoCo engines.
other than that , it appears they are oil soaked, the oil film on the treads, and possible rich condition also.
float level too high,choke not opening.
Run a compression test,looks like it needs to see a Doctor.............boar dr    


I replaced the plugs with autolite 24s. I think it is running rich. That will have to be my next task.

But what causes the oil soak?

I had a compression test, the numbers were not that good on one side.

Jared
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sjpitts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-14-2007 at 9:53pm
Originally posted by 79nautique 79nautique wrote:

you really need a shot of the inside of the tip not a side profile. The oil on the threads could be from a leaky valve cover anti-seaz.

lots of carbon, very rich running motor but does need autolite plugs.


I will try and get a better picture.

Jared
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-14-2007 at 10:14pm
Originally posted by sjpitts sjpitts wrote:

[QUOTE=boat dr]
But what causes the oil soak?


it looks like realy only one plug has an oil issue. This can be caused by a couple of things. A leaky valve cover and the oil is running to that plug and whicking thru the threads, not likely.

Another is the valve guide seal is worn and oil is leaking into the cyl thru the valve stem/guide.

Or it could be a bad oil ring on the piston for the cylinder.

usually you can use a little hotter plug in the cylinder with the oil leak to help keep it burnt off untill the rest of the engine goes and you need to rebuild it's strickly a temporary band-aid
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nuttyskier2002 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-15-2007 at 3:52am
Originally posted by sjpitts sjpitts wrote:

In the process of trying to fix my sputtering problem, I changed my plugs. When I pulled them they seemed a little overly black, and there was noticable oil on the threads.

These plugs were installed last spring by the boat mechanics. They are one step hotter than the stock 24s. The plugs have maybe 50 hours on them. The engine is an 89 PCM 351, and has 750+ hours on it. The engine was run the day before I pulled the plugs while I set the timing.

I don't really know how to read plugs. What do they say?

Jared





Jared, I was a Chevy nut long before I ever owned a boat with a Ford engine and I always used AC spark plugs. The reason I'm telling you this is because I have a little experience with heat ranges on these plugs. You say that the boat mechanic installed these plugs and that they are 1 heat range hotter than stock. I can tell you from experience that an R43TS plug is NOT a hot plug. Common ranges on AC plugs are from 42 to 46 (highest number being the hottest). The 43 is on the cold side. If you have an engine that is not completely oil tight, a hotter plug is what you may need and the R43 is definitely not it. I'm not exactly sure what number heat range of Autolite crosses to what number of AC. But I know when I ran my 1959 Chris Craft with a 327 Chevy and late model 76cc heads, I used R44TS plugs in it. This was a newly built engine that did not burn any oil. The point I'm trying to make here is that you may need to go with an Autolite 25 (hotter).
95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier

Former boats:
88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II
59 Chris Craft Capri (woody)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gigem75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-15-2007 at 10:30am
If you can cross match to an NGK plug you might give that a shot. They are by far and away the best plugs on the market, IMHO. But as stated above a shot at an angle showing more of the ceraminc insulator would tell more.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gigem75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-15-2007 at 10:40am
If you can cross match to an NGK plug you might give that a shot. They are by far and away the best plugs on the market, IMHO. But as stated above a shot at an angle showing more of the ceraminc insulator would tell more.

If you get white smoke only on start up, chances are you have worn valve guides. You can also squirt a teaspoon of oil in the suspect cylinder and check the compression. If it jumps up, it's rings. If it stays about the same it's a valve seat. Either way it sounds, like stated above. it's getting real close for a visit to the engine builder.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boat dr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-15-2007 at 10:48pm
gigem75, put those NGK plug in you Honda lawnmore or your Toyota truck, but don't tell him to follow in your wake of oblivion.
That motor,Ford , will run at its peak with the parts that came from the factory,any moron can see they are oil fouled. And seeing more of the insulator wont help the condition of the rings or other issues related to mechanical integrity .
NGK Plugs ain't gonna fix it BUBBA...............boat dr
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gigem75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-16-2007 at 9:14pm
boat dr, you obviously didn't read my post correctly but rather saw red with the mention of NGK plugs. Although NGK plugs do seem to resist fouling better than other plugs I never said it would fix his problem period, got that? The color of the insulator is what you look at when reading plugs. They give the best indication of what's going on. A better look at them would help and sorry if you can't understand that. Back to the NGK.... I don't own a honda or a toyota. I've been building engines for over 30 years and NGK plugs burn better than any plug I've ever seen. That business about Ford engines running better on autolite plugs or the plugs that came from the factory with the engine than it would on another brand of spark plug is pure bs plain and simple.

again please point out to me where I said seeing more of the insulator would help determine the mechanical integrity of the engine?
and only one of those plugs looks like it's oil fouled but a better shot of the insulator would help much more than moronic posts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gigem75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-16-2007 at 10:08pm
btw, my lawnmower is a 1968 International Harvester Cub Cadet. I wonder how it lasted so long???? hummm

1970 911T, runs perfectly, can you tune 6 downdrafts?

1980 240D running on B-100, wonder who makes that? better yet who maintains it.

ah crap, I own a rice burner pickup, wonder how it got to 200K?

82 01 tique, 351w pcm, totally rebuilt 2 years ago by guess who? It's the simplest engine I own.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boat dr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-17-2007 at 7:53am
gigem75,that Kohler will run for years with no maint,even with a NGK plug.The word here is BASIC ENGINEERING.                                   The Webers are so simple a computer geek can build them,but they are a bitch to sync.
Sounds like a M/B,Somebody gotta buy that German "sh*t"
The Porche YES<YES<YES,the M/B NOT
I asume the truck is a Nissan or Toy Truck,again they will go 200K with an oil change every 5000,bet you use fram filters too.........
You missed the point all together about the plugs,Put the parts back in that came in the unit. Be that plugs ,oil or filters, it is called an OWNERS MAN.
Now back to the plugs,don't know about you but,I don't need to see all of a TURD to know what it is, a shot of either end and a small whiff are all it takes...
They plugs are trashed and the motor not far behind and running NGK or Autolites ain't gonna fix it,I dont need to look 6 feet up a bulls ass to see you talkin Bull Shi**
...................boat dr


     Do you run NGK glow plugs in that M/B,didn't think so......I rest my case
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-17-2007 at 10:48am
Doc it's funny you guys chatting about Ben'z, My girlfriend's Dad has a late model Ben'z SUV which he hates and which he'll never buy another Ben'z of any model. The service guys at the dealer and the charges should be a law for that,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gigem75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-17-2007 at 3:08pm
Doc and Not, they go pretty well together. I've got a link to a reading comprehension course, I'll post it for you. You obviously never read my last sentence so here is is again.." Either way it sounds, like stated above. it's getting real close for a visit to the engine builder." got that, want me to repeat it.. Either way it sounds, like stated above. it's getting real close for a visit to the engine builder."



btw, it looks to me like only one of the plugs is oil fouled. In any event I stand by my statement that NGK plugs resist fouling better than any plug I've ever run. He could try them to get him down the lake and buy him some time but like I said but which you didn't read, it's probably time for a rebuild. You can talk smack all you want but it ain't gonna change the facts. If it makes you feel better to attack with your gutter comments which I suspect is to mask some sort of personality defect rather than engaging in a mature conversation/debate then knock yourself out.

Do you really think Ford is going to tell you to go buy parts other than Ford parts even if the after market parts perform better? I don't think so.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JR_VIC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-17-2007 at 3:25pm
I personally use NGK plugs in my wife's Denali with a 6.0 and used them in my previous truck which also had a 6.0 and they worked great and smoothed out the idle. I also have used them in all of my motorcycles and jetskis with great results.

With that being said, when my last set of heads were still on the boat (GT40 351W) right after I installed them I expirimented with three different sets of plugs which were Bosch, NGK, and splitfires. The Bosch plugs started OK but the engine felt very flat and sounded weird. The splitfires kept fouling and was not happy. The NGK plugs in this particular application idled extremely rough and the engine was very hard to start cold. I went back to the double platinum autolites and those have worked the best for me. Hope that helps.

Thanks!
"That's not a Snow Cone that's my Ring!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boat dr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-17-2007 at 10:21pm
Gigem,sounds like a fitting handle.Did you read the above post, these motors are a little different than that Kohler or that rice burner.........
I don't run them cause FoMoCo says so, I run them cause they last longer, and would rather send time on the lake inside my boat,than inside my boat on the trailer........
How long have you had this problem with your eyes and your comprehension or should i say giving advice?????
I see seven plugs oil fouled, one is pumping oil real bad,and telling him to squirt oil in a dead cly. sounds like "late for the date"
Hang around this site for a while and see how we play this game, not YOUR GAME.Don't care what you drive or how much money you make, or how many letters you have BEHIND YOUR NAME......
Be carful when you give advice here ,there are some members that will blow you out of the water,opinions we don't need,TELL ME HOW TO FIX IT...............boat dr


You can talk smack all you want but it ain't gonna change the facts. If it makes you feel better to attack with your gutter comments which I suspect is to mask some sort of personality defect rather than engaging in a mature conversation/debate then knock yourself out.

79, show this gigem what smack is all about,what post did you blow me out with,let me change the wording,POSTS........
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gigem75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-17-2007 at 11:07pm
I can see I'm going to have to talk very simply here. He can also have a burned valve. He has low compression on one side remember????? Squirting oil in the cylinder is a diagnostic tool that will tell him if he does. If you read that as me telling him that would fix his problem then all I can say here is what we have is failure to communicate and it ain't me.   I can't say that any simpler. Like I said it's probably time for a rebuild but he'll have a better idea of what to expect from someone who might try and rip him off and NGK plugs might run a little better until he does rebuild.
You can't see squat on the plugs on the upper left except an underexposed tip that looks black with no detail. Go run your boat with the choke engaged for an hour, chop, and photograph, post photos, we'll see..........

Let's see here,, you've attacked me just about every way possible, I can't wait to see what are you going to do for an encore!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-18-2007 at 6:34pm
Originally posted by gigem75 gigem75 wrote:

I can see I'm going to have to talk very simply here. He can also have a burned valve. He has low compression on one side remember????? Squirting oil in the cylinder is a diagnostic tool that will tell him if he does. If you read that as me telling him that would fix his problem then all I can say here is what we have is failure to communicate and it ain't me.   I can't say that any simpler. Like I said it's probably time for a rebuild but he'll have a better idea of what to expect from someone who might try and rip him off and NGK plugs might run a little better until he does rebuild.
You can't see squat on the plugs on the upper left except an underexposed tip that looks black with no detail. Go run your boat with the choke engaged for an hour, chop, and photograph, post photos, we'll see..........

Let's see here,, you've attacked me just about every way possible, I can't wait to see what are you going to do for an encore!


so are you done f**king crying because we said NKG's suck and don't belong in a ford.

It really doesn't mean sh*t that you have done all you maintenance on your cars, got over 100k on my colorado and guess who's done all of that and guess what all that is, two fuel filters, regular oil and filter changes, and one set of plugs and a couple of air filters really show's alot of ability just looking at that doesn't it, Guess Ben'z require more work since they are the finist quality of sh*t rolling down the road today, NOT I REPEAT NOT

So shut your ass and move on and don't wear your emotions on your sleeve if your going to post on this site becuase you'll get knocked down everytime by someone.
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That really cracks me up. both of you are showing your as%, not to mention letting your emotions, four letter words, and smack talk predicate your views rather than give a rational and reasoned argument as to why you think NGK plugs suck. So far all you've done is give a third grade response to statement I made that In My Humble Opinion IMHO get it? go back and read the original post, the gentleman might try running an NGK plug until he rebuilds the engine. I find it truly amazing that all this sh*t has started over a comment about spark plugs. You obviously expect everyone to think like you do and that ain't gonna happen. If you think this is some sort of Lord of the Flies scenario where you are going to dictate what gets said and brow beat those who disagree with you into submission you got another think coming. btw, I can agree with you about the quality of some of the newer MB's but mine is a 123. If your gonna smack my car at least tell everyone the 123's were crap. It's 27 years old and I expect it to last half a million miles.
In summary I'd have to say the emotional and immature posts have been directed at me and not by me. Deal with it.

I’ll even give you the last shot at me if you promise to really read what I’ve written.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-18-2007 at 8:18pm
read the BS everytime

IMHO THEY SUCK THAT"S RIGHT IMHO NGK SUCK's DONKEY'S d*ck AND SHOULD BE THROWN IN THE LAKE IMHO

guess your the one with the issue reading and interupting the written words before your eyes. MAYBE I SHOULD HAVE USED THE IMHO for you to understand it you child.

please give some more stupid stuff about how nice your cars are and how long they lasted by your superior choice in parts and labor you have performed. Your the jack ass that start throughing the I have done this I have done that bullsh*t who f'n cares we stated our thoughts just like you and we didn't even have to go into maintentance records of our own personel cars to do it either.


QUIT YOUR CRYING BECAUSE SOME OF US DON'T CARE FOR FOREIGN sh*t IN AMERICAN MUSLE AND KNOW HOW.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gigem75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-18-2007 at 9:14pm
now that is funny!

79, and dr, cover your eyes, don't read this!!!

sjpitts, it sounds like your engine is on it's last legs. I probably wouldn't recommend this if it was a fresh motor but in the intrests of getting a few more hours out of your engine, heck, maybe even till the fall you might try running some
NGK Iridium IX UR4IX plugs, maybe even a 3 which is one heat range hotter. I can't guarentee this will help but what have you got to lose? That is my humble opinion. It's worked for me in the past on tired engines and it might work for you. Just trying to help.
Here is some good information on how to read a spark plug. Please note that the insulator is what you look at. I'm posting this because the title of your post is "What do my plugs say" and this information might help you out.

Q: How do I "read" a spark plug?
A: Being able to "read" a spark plug can be a valuable tuning aid. By examining the insulator firing nose color, an experienced engine tuner can determine a great deal about the engine's overall operating condition.

Q: What is a "fouled" spark plug?
A: A spark plug is considered fouled when the insulator nose at the firing tip becomes coated with a foreign substance such as fuel, oil or carbon. This coating makes it easier for the voltage to follow along the insulator nose, leach back down into the metal shell and ground out rather than bridging the gap and firing normally.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-18-2007 at 9:34pm
gigem75

What great advise, looking at the plug can tell you a bunch, a fouled plug is this

great help what insight you offer on reading plugs get that info out of your MB's manual?

Might of been a little more helpfull if maybe you mentioned what to look for like the color, it's location on the insulator, the shape of the electrode, is the tang centered over the electroid. What it means when the insulator is white, chocolate/brownish, or black/shooty, Is the whole insulator that color or just one section? just IMHO on how to read plugs and what to look for or what it is telling you.

Maybe you should have read what the guys was doing and where the conversation was before you started sh*tting out of your mouth about the NKG plugs and then you might have read where he asked what causes it to look like that and maybe you would have seen the answer.

No you didn't see that,,,,... oh sorry join the rest of us and step outside your self centered ME ME ME, I I I world of dip sh*t's and take some of your own advice and read what was said before you start throwing up your worthless all ready stated advice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gigem75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-18-2007 at 10:27pm
it's a diesel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-18-2007 at 10:36pm
No really, never knew they only made diesel. just a little slow I guess that's why you missed the question "what causes that" and the answer too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gigem75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-18-2007 at 11:09pm
great help what insight you offer on reading plugs get that info out of your MB's manual?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boat dr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-18-2007 at 11:25pm
gigem,the wrath of Chris, gotta love that guy,I love it when you talk that way.
Gigem, let me tell you a story,probably won't understand, but i will tell the story.You are new to this site ,we don't dislike you for that reason,but we do have issues with you and your IMHO.I don't think you understand what the "H" stands for...
The guy that just flamed you , the one that uses all those four letter words,the guy you say does not comprehend.He is the guy that will blow you out of the water on Friday nite over some stupid remark you made on this site.
Then on Saturday afternoon drive to your house,bring pizza and beer and help you change out your new GT 40 heads.
Are you one of those guys, if not ,shut your trap,and go to that other site . You can impress those kids with all your toys.
Over here we are just a bunch of good old boys...........see you.......boat dr

KEEP THEM TROOPS IN LINE SGT.CHRIS..SIR
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-18-2007 at 11:53pm
Doc he just keeps repeating himself and never catches on that the question was answered long before he ever stuck his foot in his mouth.

The real questions about the plugs are they designed to SAE or DIN standards, DIN. The other question is do they have the same resistance, doesn't matter what the heat range is if the resitance of the plug isn't the same as what the system is designed for then the heat range won't be the same either v=i/r correct?.

Also since it's made to a DIN standard are the theads and seat the same for the application or is the angle off a couple of degrees so that the taper doesn't seat right. What about the thread length and tip length are they the same? yea it can be changed a little to improve combustion in curtain cases or it can make it worse too. Just because it seems to work fine in your application doesn't mean it's going to work on everone's. And maybe you should stay on topic and not go off in your little world of lala land of dip sh*t's since the guy already had hot plugs with extended tips to start with. Would have rather seen AC/Delco plugs then some DIN spec POS, but again are they the same resistance that the Autolite 24's are maybe maybe not.

So the leason her is don't talk sh*t to the master of all bullsh*t especially when you have no clue who they are and what they have done. Might have forgot a few things about Ignition Systems since I haven't designed any in a couple of years but you don't forget the basics and what plug works good for a DIS system doesn't work the same for a distributor style system or a coil near plug application either and if it works fine for a GM DIS it sure as hell isn't going to work very well on a Ford DIS system, number of turns to the primary and secondary windings aren't the same and the gauge wire and internal resistance isn't either which is key for the system to work properly.

And on top of all that he sure as hell is a little slow and doesn't even know when someone is being a smart ass or starcastic(sp)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-19-2007 at 12:04am
Originally posted by gigem75 gigem75 wrote:

great help what insight you offer on reading plugs get that info out of your MB's manual?


No I got my info from personal experince designing the Ignition system for GM's flagship motor, that being the Northstar Motor used in Cadilac's, the lower displacement Auroa single cam unit and The 2.3l and later 2.4l Quad4 engines is that good enough for you? propelly not since it not a Ben's or some foreign POS Bosch base system with half the Kv output that GM put's out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote p/allen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-19-2007 at 12:12am
Hey Chris , You still working in Chicago ? Are you going to make it to GL.?
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