excel/barefoot engine rebuild rotation |
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dave12gauge
Newbie Joined: April-06-2015 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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Posted: March-16-2016 at 3:16am |
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I have a 1991 excel with the Chevy Big Block 454. Im thinking about rebuilding it. My engine plate reads: Model PRK-WR-R10T serial 311747 Firing order 1846572. line on bottom T04031XR. The Velvet Drive is Model 10-18-002 ratio 1:1 serial no. 16274.
So, I will be pulling engine, trans, and vee drive at the same time. Thinking about building the engine with maybe 50 extra HP. Should I keep the reverse rotation or change it to standard? I can have the velvet drive indexed. Looking at buying a new prop no matter what I end up doing. Is it worth the hassle of rebuilding/buying a standard rotation engine? Is there anything I’m gaining beside a more common/ more selection of props? I’m I missing any major pros or cons (I have looked through the forum, but they are all direct drive). I'm still new to inboard boats. Thank you in advance for the help and this great forum. Looked up many questions I had for my new, gently aging boat. |
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Duane in Indy
Platinum Member Joined: October-26-2015 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1578 |
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18436572 Has been normal rotation for Chevy's since 1955. their first v-8
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Keep it as original as YOU want it
1978 Mustang (modified) |
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13513 |
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GottaSki
Grand Poobah Joined: April-21-2005 Location: NE CT Status: Offline Points: 3359 |
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What is the immediate need to pull the entire drivetrain?
Really certain the lower end is in need of rebuild? Current Hrs? Else just rework the top end, block in-place. <edit> (Oh, might be hard to get the cam out) |
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
River Rat to Mole |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11061 |
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Hi Dave
The firing order you have given (18436572) is for a normal (automotive) rotation 454 like Duane pointed out Reverse rotation is 12756348. If you look at your distributor cap, and work your way around CLOCKWISE you can figure out your firing order, then you'll know what the rotation is. the distributor turns clockwise.whether it's normal or reverse rotation so do yourself a favor and check that firing order. there's been plenty of confusion on v drive 454 excel/BFN's. before. KenO |
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dave12gauge
Newbie Joined: April-06-2015 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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The story...
Bought boat May 2014 from an owners best friend (sad story owner died). Told me that the impeller was changed summer of 13. I was planning on changing it anyways. On its madian voyage for me, my second pass I did a tantrum, landed with my knee locked, popped the femur out of the hip socket. Called wife on the way to hospital and she asked "were still going on our houseboat trip in 3 weeks, right?". So I didn't get around to changing the impeller. On the trip, when my wife was driving the impeller disintegrated. Motor got HOT. Changed impeller, at times still getting hot. Pieces floating through motor and getting jammed in the small bypass hose going from intake manifold to circulation pump. (took awhile to figure out) Ran boat rest of summer, but not as much as I wanted to. May 2015 head gasket blew between cylinder 4 & 6. Took off both heads and the surfaced them. Machinist said that the other head was more warped then the head that had the blown gasket. Got it back together 2 days before our trip. Ran rest of summer no issues, I was babying it. Second to last trip of the year I went full throttle (4200-4300rpm) for a few minutes 49MPH Acme #380 prop 13.5x17 VR1 1/8. Then some noise out of the engine, maybe valves floating? Took back to the lake and it did run like normal. I will confirm Rotation of engine today. Oil pressure is lower than when I bought the boat. After the head were surfaced and tanked, I was blowing out the water passages with an air compressor and still was getting pieces of impeller. Who knows whats still floating in my engine. About 900 hours. When checking for blown head gasket the compression were all between 110 and 115. I have another houseboat trip, I will have the only boat. Should I trust this engine? |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21171 |
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Ononewheel's old boat?
The lower oil pressure is concerning. Are you running the proper amount, weight and type of oil? What oil pressure do you see now? Any other electrical system changes that may cause the gauge to read differently? Any knocking or other scary sounds coming from the bottom end? I would not put a LH prop on that boat personally, I'd keep the engine RH if you decide to rebuild. Parts are available to do this. You cannot take the firing order off the the intake manifold casting, that does not mean anything. The proper way to verify it is per above. The R in the 2nd position of your engine id number indicates it's a righty (rev rotation), which is consistent with other v-drive excels. |
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13513 |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21171 |
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Department of Redundancy Department?
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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I certainly agree with keeping the prop rotation original. There are plenty of RH wheels that are available for that hull/engine combo.
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dave12gauge
Newbie Joined: April-06-2015 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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I'll kept the right hand prop. When I buy a new prop I'll have a spare.
Checked engine multiple times. It's reverse rotation despite the engine tag saying differently. I even took a video if no one believes me. Haha. Looking at the harmonic balancer it's turning counter clockwise. I've number the distributor and the firing order is 1,2,756348 First years oil was 10w40 topped off with 20w50. . After the head gasket I used 20w50 and I may have throw in some lucus. As far as noises coming from the bottom end I can't hear anything when the lid is closed. Tried cracking the lid once or twice and I really could hear anything. I don't think any electrical issues. Maybe gauge going out. I'll check ononeswheel. |
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13513 |
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Your engine tag says reverse rotation
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Jonny Quest
Grand Poobah Joined: August-20-2013 Location: Utah--via Texas Status: Offline Points: 2957 |
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Sometimes, folks get a little confused at the "Standard" vs. "Reverse Rotation" in the marine industry. A "Standard" Rotation in the marine industry is a "Reverse Rotation" in the automotive industry. Automotive industry views the engine rotation from the front of the vehicle -- or from the harmonic balancer side looking toward the bell housing. Marine industry views the engine rotation from the bell housing side looking toward the harmonic balancer. If you are viewing your engine from the harmonic balancer end, a counter-clockwise engine is a REVERSE Rotation marine engine. JQ |
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Current
2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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dave12gauge
Newbie Joined: April-06-2015 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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I checked my engine either last year or the year before and checked the tag on one of the post here. I knew it was reverse rotation. One of the comments above through me for a loop. It is interesting that the model number says its reverse but on the same same tag it says the firing order is 1846572 which is standard.
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11061 |
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Here's a picture of a rev rotation 454 engine tag that belongs to Air 206 that he posted a couple years ago It says reverse rotation and it also has the reverse rotation firing order on the tag. So for Hollywood what Dave is saying is that his tag says reverse rotation but has a normal firing order printed on the tag. If Dave puts up a picture of his, it will explain things maybe.. Sound like a screwed up tag to me. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Or as Tim mentioned, the firing order is not off the tag?
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21171 |
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The first half of this post is wrong. Automotive and marine are NOT different when stating "standard rotation" vs "reverse rotation". They DO differ in regards to LH vs RH convention as they use a different reference point. Standard rotation = "automotive RH" = "marine LH" <-- referred to as LH on this site Reverse rotation = "automotive LH" = "marine RH" <-- referred to as RH on this site. |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11061 |
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Pete Read all the words in this quote from Dave especially the part about "on the same tag" |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Ken, I did read all the words very carefully and did see all the mentioning of the tag! This sure is confusing! What's really odd is the tag model # and firing order not matching and the reason I thought like Tim that David is reading the firing order on the intake? |
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IAughtNaut
Grand Poobah Joined: August-22-2010 Location: TN Status: Offline Points: 2568 |
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maybe it's a bi-curious rotation. most of the time it spins right, but after a few tequilas it can be talked into going left
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GottaSki
Grand Poobah Joined: April-21-2005 Location: NE CT Status: Offline Points: 3359 |
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
River Rat to Mole |
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JPASS
Grand Poobah Joined: June-17-2013 Location: Orlando Status: Offline Points: 2283 |
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That Princess Bride meme almost made me spit out my drink. I even read it in Enigo's accent. Lol.
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'92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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The alcohol is our gas over here does have a tendency to goof up the "bi-curious" engine!! |
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velde99
Platinum Member Joined: November-04-2012 Location: Tampa Florida Status: Offline Points: 1108 |
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Dave- sent a pm
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Jonny Quest
Grand Poobah Joined: August-20-2013 Location: Utah--via Texas Status: Offline Points: 2957 |
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Thanks Tim for clarifying...My brain was in Reverse Rotation mode when I typed the post above.
When viewed from the SAME perspective -- a Left-Hand or standard rotation marine engine rotates in the same direction as a standard rotation automotive engine. When looking at the 351 Windsor engine in your Ford Mustang, the engine turns clockwise. When sitting in the observer seat in your Ski Nautique and looking at the 351 Windsor PCM engine, the Left-Hand / Standard Rotation engine also turns clockwise. JQ |
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Current
2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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dave12gauge
Newbie Joined: April-06-2015 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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bi-curious rotation. I am on the left coast and we have plenty of screws loose, mostly in people's heads. Commufornia.
This engine also has a "cunuter" valve and a muffler bearing. Yup, both. Plan is to pull motor tomorrow. Noise I heard at high RPM is not sitting well with my confidence factor. Plus just think of all the money I'm going to save not having to top off with oil every other pass. Can't add picture of engine tag but its defiantly misprinted. Looking around on the site, it did look like the ford engine in this boat spun both standard and reverse rotation. Besides rebuilding the starter, what are the specific negatives for a vee drive boat to have a standard rotation engine and I'll keep the RH prop? Probably going to reseal and check transmission (velvet drive 72C) for $500. Reason for asking is that the cam may be custom ground and will take a bit longer for me to get the engine back, plus I haven't got a cost yet. My only thinking is that the engine and prop will be turing in the same direction causing the torque to go to starboard and slightly tilt the boat. This is just a family boat and me and my 8 year old are far from being a professional wakeboarder. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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David,
I suggest keeping the engine rotation and RH prop as is. Yes, changing rotation affects the rotational torque on the hull. Don't kiss the cam goodbye yet. Chances are that it still may be good. |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21171 |
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This is not possible. The transmission can be indexed to spin either way but it can NOT reverse the rotation of the engine (velvets cannot be spun full power in reverse). Engine and transmission rotation must match. LH prop would be the biggest downside of a LH engine. It could be done but it's not just a starter (and you cannot simply "rebuild" it). Cam and distributor change too. |
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quinner
Grand Poobah Joined: October-12-2005 Location: Unknown Status: Offline Points: 5828 |
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Maybe you guys can learnt me sumthing here about the BBC's and the V-Drives CC used.
Beginning In 89' the 1:23 trans used in the DD boats allowed counter rotation, hence left motor righty prop. At what point were the V-Drives able to counter rotate, lefty motor righty prop? Until 89' all BBC's were right rotation? Thought I recall the special HO BBC offering was a lefty? True or False? |
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7953 |
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A 1:1 V drive reverses the rotation, but that is off set by the bacerds installation of the engine which also reverses the rotation. Whatever the output is at the transmission,( RH or LH) should be the same for the prop when goes through the 1:1 v drive. Looking at the trans from the back of it as compared to looking at the prop from the rear.
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