Forums
NautiqueParts.comCalendar Photo Submission
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - excel/barefoot engine rebuild rotation
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

excel/barefoot engine rebuild rotation

 Post Reply Post Reply Page   12>
Author
dave12gauge View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: April-06-2015
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 34
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave12gauge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: excel/barefoot engine rebuild rotation
    Posted: March-16-2016 at 3:16am
I have a 1991 excel with the Chevy Big Block 454. Im thinking about rebuilding it. My engine plate reads: Model PRK-WR-R10T serial 311747 Firing order 1846572. line on bottom T04031XR. The Velvet Drive is Model 10-18-002 ratio 1:1 serial no. 16274.

So, I will be pulling engine, trans, and vee drive at the same time. Thinking about building the engine with maybe 50 extra HP. Should I keep the reverse rotation or change it to standard? I can have the velvet drive indexed. Looking at buying a new prop no matter what I end up doing.

Is it worth the hassle of rebuilding/buying a standard rotation engine? Is there anything I’m gaining beside a more common/ more selection of props? I’m I missing any major pros or cons (I have looked through the forum, but they are all direct drive). I'm still new to inboard boats.

Thank you in advance for the help and this great forum. Looked up many questions I had for my new, gently aging boat.
Back to Top
Duane in Indy View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: October-26-2015
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 1578
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-16-2016 at 5:59am
18436572 Has been normal rotation for Chevy's since 1955. their first v-8
Keep it as original as YOU want it
        1978 Mustang (modified)
Back to Top
Hollywood View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: February-04-2004
Location: Twin Lakes, WI
Status: Offline
Points: 13513
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-16-2016 at 11:50am
Back to Top
GottaSki View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah


Joined: April-21-2005
Location: NE CT
Status: Offline
Points: 3359
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-16-2016 at 12:13pm
What is the immediate need to pull the entire drivetrain?

Really certain the lower end is in need of rebuild? Current Hrs?

Else just rework the top end, block in-place. <edit> (Oh, might be hard to get the cam out)
"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."

River Rat to Mole
Back to Top
KENO View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah


Joined: June-06-2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 11061
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-16-2016 at 3:48pm
Hi Dave

The firing order you have given (18436572) is for a normal (automotive) rotation 454 like Duane pointed out

Reverse rotation is 12756348.

If you look at your distributor cap, and work your way around CLOCKWISE you can figure out your firing order, then you'll know what the rotation is.

the distributor turns clockwise.whether it's normal or reverse rotation so do yourself a favor and check that firing order.

there's been plenty of confusion on v drive 454 excel/BFN's. before.

KenO
Back to Top
dave12gauge View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: April-06-2015
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 34
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave12gauge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-16-2016 at 5:14pm
The story...
Bought boat May 2014 from an owners best friend (sad story owner died). Told me that the impeller was changed summer of 13. I was planning on changing it anyways. On its madian voyage for me, my second pass I did a tantrum, landed with my knee locked, popped the femur out of the hip socket. Called wife on the way to hospital and she asked "were still going on our houseboat trip in 3 weeks, right?". So I didn't get around to changing the impeller. On the trip, when my wife was driving the impeller disintegrated. Motor got HOT. Changed impeller, at times still getting hot. Pieces floating through motor and getting jammed in the small bypass hose going from intake manifold to circulation pump. (took awhile to figure out)
Ran boat rest of summer, but not as much as I wanted to.
May 2015 head gasket blew between cylinder 4 & 6. Took off both heads and the surfaced them. Machinist said that the other head was more warped then the head that had the blown gasket. Got it back together 2 days before our trip. Ran rest of summer no issues, I was babying it. Second to last trip of the year I went full throttle (4200-4300rpm) for a few minutes 49MPH Acme #380 prop 13.5x17 VR1 1/8. Then some noise out of the engine, maybe valves floating? Took back to the lake and it did run like normal.
I will confirm Rotation of engine today.
Oil pressure is lower than when I bought the boat.
After the head were surfaced and tanked, I was blowing out the water passages with an air compressor and still was getting pieces of impeller. Who knows whats still floating in my engine.
About 900 hours.
When checking for blown head gasket the compression were all between 110 and 115.
I have another houseboat trip, I will have the only boat.
Should I trust this engine?
Back to Top
TRBenj View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: June-29-2005
Location: NWCT
Status: Offline
Points: 21171
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-16-2016 at 5:54pm
Ononewheel's old boat?

The lower oil pressure is concerning. Are you running the proper amount, weight and type of oil? What oil pressure do you see now? Any other electrical system changes that may cause the gauge to read differently?

Any knocking or other scary sounds coming from the bottom end?

I would not put a LH prop on that boat personally, I'd keep the engine RH if you decide to rebuild. Parts are available to do this. You cannot take the firing order off the the intake manifold casting, that does not mean anything. The proper way to verify it is per above. The R in the 2nd position of your engine id number indicates it's a righty (rev rotation), which is consistent with other v-drive excels.
Back to Top
Hollywood View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: February-04-2004
Location: Twin Lakes, WI
Status: Offline
Points: 13513
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-16-2016 at 6:26pm
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

v-drive excels.

Back to Top
TRBenj View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: June-29-2005
Location: NWCT
Status: Offline
Points: 21171
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-16-2016 at 6:44pm
Department of Redundancy Department?
Back to Top
8122pbrainard View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: September-14-2006
Location: Three Lakes Wi.
Status: Offline
Points: 41045
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-16-2016 at 6:45pm
I certainly agree with keeping the prop rotation original. There are plenty of RH wheels that are available for that hull/engine combo.


54 Atom


77 Tique

64 X55 Dunphy

Keep it original, Pete
<
Back to Top
dave12gauge View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: April-06-2015
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 34
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave12gauge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-16-2016 at 11:18pm
I'll kept the right hand prop. When I buy a new prop I'll have a spare.

Checked engine multiple times. It's reverse rotation despite the engine tag saying differently. I even took a video if no one believes me. Haha. Looking at the harmonic balancer it's turning counter clockwise. I've number the distributor and the firing order is 1,2,756348

First years oil was 10w40 topped off with 20w50. . After the head gasket I used 20w50 and I may have throw in some lucus. As far as noises coming from the bottom end I can't hear anything when the lid is closed. Tried cracking the lid once or twice and I really could hear anything.

I don't think any electrical issues. Maybe gauge going out.

I'll check ononeswheel.
Back to Top
Hollywood View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: February-04-2004
Location: Twin Lakes, WI
Status: Offline
Points: 13513
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-17-2016 at 1:00am
Originally posted by dave12gauge dave12gauge wrote:

Checked engine multiple times. It's reverse rotation despite the engine tag saying differently.

Your engine tag says reverse rotation
Originally posted by dave12gauge dave12gauge wrote:

Model PRK-WR-R10T
Back to Top
Jonny Quest View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: August-20-2013
Location: Utah--via Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 2957
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonny Quest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-17-2016 at 1:26am
Originally posted by dave12gauge dave12gauge wrote:



Checked engine multiple times. It's reverse rotation despite the engine tag saying differently. I even took a video if no one believes me. Haha. Looking at the harmonic balancer it's turning counter clockwise.


Sometimes, folks get a little confused at the "Standard" vs. "Reverse Rotation" in the marine industry.

A "Standard" Rotation in the marine industry is a "Reverse Rotation" in the automotive industry.

Automotive industry views the engine rotation from the front of the vehicle -- or from the harmonic balancer side looking toward the bell housing. Marine industry views the engine rotation from the bell housing side looking toward the harmonic balancer.

If you are viewing your engine from the harmonic balancer end, a counter-clockwise engine is a REVERSE Rotation marine engine.

JQ
Current
2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited

Previous
2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow
1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow

Aqua skiing, ergo sum
Back to Top
dave12gauge View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: April-06-2015
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 34
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave12gauge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-17-2016 at 2:57am
I checked my engine either last year or the year before and checked the tag on one of the post here. I knew it was reverse rotation. One of the comments above through me for a loop. It is interesting that the model number says its reverse but on the same same tag it says the firing order is 1846572 which is standard.
Back to Top
KENO View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah


Joined: June-06-2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 11061
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-17-2016 at 8:43am


Here's a picture of a rev rotation 454 engine tag that belongs to Air 206 that he posted a couple years ago It says reverse rotation and it also has the reverse rotation firing order on the tag.

So for Hollywood what Dave is saying is that his tag says reverse rotation but has a normal firing order printed on the tag.

If Dave puts up a picture of his, it will explain things maybe..

Sound like a screwed up tag to me.

Back to Top
8122pbrainard View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: September-14-2006
Location: Three Lakes Wi.
Status: Offline
Points: 41045
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-17-2016 at 8:54am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Sound like a screwed up tag to me.

Or as Tim mentioned, the firing order is not off the tag?
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

   You cannot take the firing order off the the intake manifold casting, that does not mean anything. .


54 Atom


77 Tique

64 X55 Dunphy

Keep it original, Pete
<
Back to Top
TRBenj View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: June-29-2005
Location: NWCT
Status: Offline
Points: 21171
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-17-2016 at 9:01am
Originally posted by Jonny Quest Jonny Quest wrote:

Originally posted by dave12gauge dave12gauge wrote:



Checked engine multiple times. It's reverse rotation despite the engine tag saying differently. I even took a video if no one believes me. Haha. Looking at the harmonic balancer it's turning counter clockwise.


Sometimes, folks get a little confused at the "Standard" vs. "Reverse Rotation" in the marine industry.

A "Standard" Rotation in the marine industry is a "Reverse Rotation" in the automotive industry.

Automotive industry views the engine rotation from the front of the vehicle -- or from the harmonic balancer side looking toward the bell housing. Marine industry views the engine rotation from the bell housing side looking toward the harmonic balancer.

If you are viewing your engine from the harmonic balancer end, a counter-clockwise engine is a REVERSE Rotation marine engine.

JQ

The first half of this post is wrong.

Automotive and marine are NOT different when stating "standard rotation" vs "reverse rotation". They DO differ in regards to LH vs RH convention as they use a different reference point.

Standard rotation = "automotive RH" = "marine LH" <-- referred to as LH on this site
Reverse rotation = "automotive LH" = "marine RH" <-- referred to as RH on this site.
Back to Top
KENO View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah


Joined: June-06-2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 11061
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-17-2016 at 9:08am
Originally posted by dave12gauge dave12gauge wrote:

I checked my engine either last year or the year before and checked the tag on one of the post here. I knew it was reverse rotation. One of the comments above through me for a loop. It is interesting that the model number says its reverse but on the same same tag it says the firing order is 1846572 which is standard.


Pete
Read all the words in this quote from Dave especially the part about "on the same tag"
Back to Top
8122pbrainard View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: September-14-2006
Location: Three Lakes Wi.
Status: Offline
Points: 41045
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-17-2016 at 9:21am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Originally posted by dave12gauge dave12gauge wrote:

I checked my engine either last year or the year before and checked the tag on one of the post here. I knew it was reverse rotation. One of the comments above through me for a loop. It is interesting that the model number says its reverse but on the same same tag it says the firing order is 1846572 which is standard.


Pete
Read all the words in this quote from Dave especially the part about "on the same tag"

Ken,
I did read all the words very carefully and did see all the mentioning of the tag! This sure is confusing! What's really odd is the tag model # and firing order not matching and the reason I thought like Tim that David is reading the firing order on the intake?


54 Atom


77 Tique

64 X55 Dunphy

Keep it original, Pete
<
Back to Top
IAughtNaut View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: August-22-2010
Location: TN
Status: Offline
Points: 2568
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IAughtNaut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-17-2016 at 10:16am
maybe it's a bi-curious rotation. most of the time it spins right, but after a few tequilas it can be talked into going left
bring the ruckus
2000 Pro Air
Back to Top
GottaSki View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah


Joined: April-21-2005
Location: NE CT
Status: Offline
Points: 3359
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-17-2016 at 10:56am
"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."

River Rat to Mole
Back to Top
JPASS View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: June-17-2013
Location: Orlando
Status: Offline
Points: 2283
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JPASS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-17-2016 at 11:13am
That Princess Bride meme almost made me spit out my drink. I even read it in Enigo's accent. Lol.




'92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique
Back to Top
8122pbrainard View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: September-14-2006
Location: Three Lakes Wi.
Status: Offline
Points: 41045
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-17-2016 at 11:18am
Originally posted by IAughtNaut IAughtNaut wrote:

maybe it's a bi-curious rotation. most of the time it spins right, but after a few tequilas it can be talked into going left

The alcohol is our gas over here does have a tendency to goof up the "bi-curious" engine!!


54 Atom


77 Tique

64 X55 Dunphy

Keep it original, Pete
<
Back to Top
velde99 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: November-04-2012
Location: Tampa Florida
Status: Offline
Points: 1108
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote velde99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-17-2016 at 3:21pm
Dave- sent a pm
Back to Top
Jonny Quest View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: August-20-2013
Location: Utah--via Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 2957
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonny Quest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-17-2016 at 7:11pm
Thanks Tim for clarifying...My brain was in Reverse Rotation mode when I typed the post above.

When viewed from the SAME perspective -- a Left-Hand or standard rotation marine engine rotates in the same direction as a standard rotation automotive engine. When looking at the 351 Windsor engine in your Ford Mustang, the engine turns clockwise. When sitting in the observer seat in your Ski Nautique and looking at the 351 Windsor PCM engine, the Left-Hand / Standard Rotation engine also turns clockwise.

JQ
Current
2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited

Previous
2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow
1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow

Aqua skiing, ergo sum
Back to Top
dave12gauge View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: April-06-2015
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 34
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave12gauge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-18-2016 at 4:33am
bi-curious rotation. I am on the left coast and we have plenty of screws loose, mostly in people's heads. Commufornia.
This engine also has a "cunuter" valve and a muffler bearing. Yup, both.

Plan is to pull motor tomorrow. Noise I heard at high RPM is not sitting well with my confidence factor. Plus just think of all the money I'm going to save not having to top off with oil every other pass.

Can't add picture of engine tag but its defiantly misprinted.

Looking around on the site, it did look like the ford engine in this boat spun both standard and reverse rotation. Besides rebuilding the starter, what are the specific negatives for a vee drive boat to have a standard rotation engine and I'll keep the RH prop? Probably going to reseal and check transmission (velvet drive 72C) for $500. Reason for asking is that the cam may be custom ground and will take a bit longer for me to get the engine back, plus I haven't got a cost yet. My only thinking is that the engine and prop will be turing in the same direction causing the torque to go to starboard and slightly tilt the boat. This is just a family boat and me and my 8 year old are far from being a professional wakeboarder.
Back to Top
8122pbrainard View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: September-14-2006
Location: Three Lakes Wi.
Status: Offline
Points: 41045
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-18-2016 at 6:41am
David,
I suggest keeping the engine rotation and RH prop as is. Yes, changing rotation affects the rotational torque on the hull. Don't kiss the cam goodbye yet. Chances are that it still may be good.


54 Atom


77 Tique

64 X55 Dunphy

Keep it original, Pete
<
Back to Top
TRBenj View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: June-29-2005
Location: NWCT
Status: Offline
Points: 21171
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-18-2016 at 10:42am
Originally posted by dave12gauge dave12gauge wrote:

   what are the specific negatives for a vee drive boat to have a standard rotation engine and I'll keep the RH prop?


This is not possible.

The transmission can be indexed to spin either way but it can NOT reverse the rotation of the engine (velvets cannot be spun full power in reverse). Engine and transmission rotation must match.

LH prop would be the biggest downside of a LH engine. It could be done but it's not just a starter (and you cannot simply "rebuild" it). Cam and distributor change too.
Back to Top
quinner View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: October-12-2005
Location: Unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 5828
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote quinner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-18-2016 at 11:51am
Maybe you guys can learnt me sumthing here about the BBC's and the V-Drives CC used.

Beginning In 89' the 1:23 trans used in the DD boats allowed counter rotation, hence left motor righty prop.
At what point were the V-Drives able to counter rotate, lefty motor righty prop?

Until 89' all BBC's were right rotation?
Thought I recall the special HO BBC offering was a lefty? True or False?
Back to Top
Riley View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: January-19-2004
Location: Portland, ME
Status: Offline
Points: 7953
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-18-2016 at 12:11pm
A 1:1 V drive reverses the rotation, but that is off set by the bacerds installation of the engine which also reverses the rotation. Whatever the output is at the transmission,( RH or LH) should be the same for the prop when goes through the 1:1 v drive. Looking at the trans from the back of it as compared to looking at the prop from the rear.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page   12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Copyright 2024 | Bagley Productions, LLC