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Sea water mystery

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    Posted: August-31-2023 at 9:20pm
I have been trying to get my sea water pump in my 75 SW 18 working.
All good on garden hose.
Took it to the lake, and no sea water will enter the port and hose leading to the pump. I know this because I installed a clear hose that I can see what’s going on. So after half an hour of messing around at the dock, never got any seawater in that hose at all. I was tempted to remove the hose and see what happened when I opened up an inch and a quarter hole in the hull. I am sure Water would have gushed in. Not wanting to sink the boat. I took it home. I learned in school but water seeks it’s own level. If that were the case, then that Hose would fill up and to my calculations the pump also. This is a DV so the pump is pretty far down below water level. I have read all the forums to tell me to check everything for vacuum, leaks, etc. I have done this many times to no avail. Even if I have a bad pump, why does water not enter that hose. Tomorrow I am taking the boat to my pond and putting a different hose on the inlet to see how far up the water comes. I’m willing to bet it seeks it’s own level somewhere just below the floor,
I am at wits end. Can someone help?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-01-2023 at 7:22am
Water will seek it's own level as long as there's a vent path for air in the line to escape. No vent path, no water gets into the hose.

How are you supplying water from the garden hose to be able to say that "all's good" ?

Is it being forced through the pump by the hose pressure?

Is this a PCM/ Waukesha 351 with a Sherwood pump or some other engine/pump setup?

Have you had the pump off and maybe remounted it upside down so that it won't pump any water since the suction hose would now be hooked to the pump discharge?    It happens 

Have you looked at the impeller to see what it looks like?

So many questions.............answer em' all. Wink


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DenDen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-01-2023 at 9:13am
I will try to answer all your questions.
The pump is in OMC belt driven mounted underneath fuel pump on the right hand side of a small block Chevy 307. I have had to pump off and rebuild it to the best of my ability as the only part available is the impeller. That means that I had to make the gaskets polish the stainless steel parts up, purchased a new bearing and seal. We are pretty capable of doing this rebuild as my next-door neighbor has a machine shop in his garage. Installed a new clear hose from the boat intake to the pump. Everything is sealed up really well there. I’m confident there’s no leaks , as for running it on the driveway with the garden hose. Yes, we are forcing the water in. I can actually force water through the pump when the engine is not running all the way through the engine and out the exhaust which would lead me to believe that Air would also bleed through the entire system and that’s why I can’t understand the water does not enter this pipe to the pump . I just read how to post pictures on this forum. I am using an iPhone, and apparently the icons don’t appear on an iPhone at the top of the page. I was very careful not to overheat the pump and ruin the new impeller when there’s no water going into it at the lake. Although this could have happened. I am not sure what my next move is as I hate to take the pump a part to check the impeller as I will have to make new gaskets again. I am thinking of just getting a new pump which I found a guy had some pieces left over but he wants a fortune for them. Like a Thousand dollars for the pump. At this point, I am willing to try anything. Unfortunately, there’s not room in front of the crankshaft to mount that style of pump. I have also located supposed replacement pump for this online is a brand new stainless steel version. That would run me about 600 bucks. As you know the condition, this boat is in right now is not worth much without new flooring stringers. That’s why I was hoping to see mechanically how fit it was before doing all that this winter. I was hoping to keep the boat original, and for what I have invested right now I could easily find another one. I had a 77 just like this and that is why I am partial to this one. The 77, was a 351.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DenDen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-01-2023 at 9:15am
I do not know how far you were willing to go to help someone. But I could easily text you pictures if I had a phone number.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DenDen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-01-2023 at 11:12am
I just had a thought. What pump do all the 351s running around here use? Certainly there’s a belt driven pump that I could convert to in OMC?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLBC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-01-2023 at 12:34pm
Double and triple check that the pump is not upside down.
99
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote swilliams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-01-2023 at 1:53pm
If you rebuild that pump with the impeller blades facing the wrong direction, it probably will not draw water. If it’s the same pump I have, you cannot mount them incorrectly to the block.
1976 Martinique,350 Omc. 1975 Glastron/Carlson CV16,115 Merc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-01-2023 at 2:16pm
In any case using the pressurized hose on the intake hose is a mistake, you can put too much water pressure on it and cause issues.  The best method is the "timmy T" you'll see referenced in multiple threads.  Basically you add a T to the intake hose between the hull and raw water pump, put a garden hose connector on the T, and when you turn on the hose it discharges out the bottom of hull until the engine starts and the pump picks up as much water as it needs, any excess still flows out the bottom.  2 advantages to this setup, 1st you can't apply too much pressure, 2nd you are replicating the hull in the water, if your pump won't pull with the hull in the water it won't pull in this setup either.

The pumps, as you've seen from having it apart, are simple as can be.  The causes for not working are upside down pump as people mentioned above, not sure what your OMC pump looks like but is a common problem on the 351's, or air leak on the suction side, which you say you've checked carefully, or a bad impeller.  If you don't want to open up the pump housing again maybe just remove the pump and see if you can turn it by hand in the proper direction, should turn relatively hard but steadily, if anything feels funky open it up to check the impeller.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-01-2023 at 5:01pm
Assembling the pump can be hard but if you apply some wet dish soap, I use dawn, to the blades they will slip easy as you install and you can rotate them as needed for assembly.   I have installed a pump upside down and for absolute fact they do not pump water upside down but bolt right up just fine.   When we say upside down, when the pump is apart the body can be rotated so the inlet is on the bottom and the outlet on the top while all the mounting bolts are in the right position to assemble.   Worth a check.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fanofccfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-01-2023 at 5:40pm
My old sherwood leaked air on the back side where the shaft sits and rotates in the housing.  It needed a new press fit bushing to fix that issue.  I am not familiar with your exact pump but it is a thought I had while reading your post.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DenDen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-01-2023 at 8:49pm
With the boat floating in the water, we do not get any water into the hose leading to the pump from the fresh water intake. Also tried switching the In-N-Out same result. So we loosened the clamp at the pump and allowed air to bleed out and that line to fill full of water. Started the boat still did not pump water. Did this with the lines switched and not switched. I am at a total loss right now. It seems the pump does not pump. I guess I will take it out. may be bench test it. Then take it apart.
I have talked to a fellow at Northwood marina, who rebuilds pumps for Chris, Kraft and older boats. He seems to think these pumps are very complicated and he can be the only one to possibly get it to work. That route would still cost me over $1000. This is not rocket science. It’s an old boat that needs a belt driven pump. Help ! Getting discouraged.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MourningWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-01-2023 at 10:00pm
Originally posted by DenDen DenDen wrote:

With the boat floating in the water, we do not get any water into the hose leading to the pump from the fresh water intake. science.  ! Getting discouraged.

Geeze Louise!
Unhook the intake hose from the raw water pump and drop boat into water, staying on trailer...(boat won't sink)
If water comes up through the intake hose, then the culprit is the next item in line-the pump.

Which is probably blocked.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-01-2023 at 10:01pm
Definitely not rocket science.  You have either an air leak, or a bad impeller.  Certainly seems to me it's an air leak.  I wish someone was near you that could donate a pump to simply get you going, though I don't know how much bracket modification you'd need to mount a Sherwood pump.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote swilliams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2023 at 4:43am
Den, where in Ohio are you located? I have an extra pump here but I need to see what you have to match up. I’ll send you my phone # so you can send me some pics. Steve
1976 Martinique,350 Omc. 1975 Glastron/Carlson CV16,115 Merc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DenDen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2023 at 7:19am
I am in Rittman, 44270. It is close to Wadsworth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DenDen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2023 at 7:21am
My phone number is 330-714-2036
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DenDen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2023 at 7:30am
Thanks for everyone’s help. Here is what we did last. Put the boat back in the pond floating on the trailer. Tried it again and there was no water in the hose. Remember it’s clear so I can see. Did it both ways switching the In-N-Out hose.
That did not work. So we loosened the hose at the pump, allowing the hose to fill up. And try to start the boat and it still did not pump water. Tried that with the hose both ways. In for Out out for in.
At this point, I have to assume my pump is no good.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2023 at 7:34am
Hope you guys are talking to each other, texting pictures back and forth.

It's only a UPS truck ride away Wink

Len you mentioned lack of clearance for a crank driven pump.............how much room do you have before things start hitting each other?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote swilliams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2023 at 7:53am
Ken, Den sent me pictures of his pump and it is identical to the ones I have. I have one an unassembled one that would be a direct bolt on but I’m not sure of its internal condition. Seems to drag well. Worth a shot!
1976 Martinique,350 Omc. 1975 Glastron/Carlson CV16,115 Merc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2023 at 8:52am
Originally posted by swilliams swilliams wrote:

Ken, Den sent me pictures of his pump and it is identical to the ones I have. I have one an unassembled one that would be a direct bolt on but I’m not sure of its internal condition. Seems to drag well. Worth a shot!

Thumbs Up  Thumbs Up

Maybe he's got an extra original  gas cap hangin' around Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrCC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2023 at 11:05am
Haven't read the whole post.   But kinda sounds like to me that you have a dead mouse or mud dobbers in your thru-hull.
Keep it....from sinkin'
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DenDen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2023 at 6:40pm
We put the boat in the pond again and did a number of things to try to get water into the hose. We loosen the intake hose at the pump. Hose filled up. We loosened the out hose at the pump. Hose filled up we took the hose off the Transmission cooler hose filled up. Took the hose off after the transmission cooler. Hose did not fill up. It seems possibly the transmission filter or cooler is plugged. Will check it out later.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrCC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2023 at 8:48am
So,   If your pump is before the cooler, it's full of black rubber particles.   Pump after cooler, it's full of lake debris.   Thankfully no mouse.
Keep it....from sinkin'
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MourningWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2023 at 12:18pm
Originally posted by DrCC DrCC wrote:

So,   If your pump is before the cooler, it's full of black rubber particles....

Hug

After all, why was the pump impeller replaced to begin with?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DenDen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2023 at 7:46am
Thanks for the answer. Going to look into that next.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2023 at 7:54am
So.............how's the mystery these days?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote swilliams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2023 at 1:54pm
Den’s working on it but did say the pump I gave him works. His cooling system has the rwp sending water through the trans cooler to the exhaust risers and then back through the exhaust manifolds to the thermostat housing. My Omc goes through the same pump, cooler and then directly to the thermostat housing. His is an earlier version. He did mention his thermostat was stuck so there’s more to come.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DenDen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2023 at 2:39pm
Yes, the pump I got from Steve worked. But now that I’ve gotten my shop manual I am pretty sure I know what is wrong. I thought they took the thermostat out so I put one back in. That being where you would put the normal automotive thermostat. However, this this motor has a thermostat a little higher up in the block and it is not supposed to have the automotive thermostat in it. So I need to order a new correct thermostat for it and then remove the automotive one and try it. I will not get my parts until Monday.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2023 at 4:14pm
I'd fire that thing up with no thermostat just to see if you have flow.............for testing Wink

It won't hurt anything and you'll be able to tell if you have water flowing. 

It'll fill up the engine and the water will mix with the water going to the manifolds, just like having an open thermostat in the system.

No fair forcing it through with hose pressure, hook the suction to a 5 gallon bucket with a hose feeding the bucket and watch the water come out the exhaust 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote swilliams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2023 at 5:03pm
+1 on the bucket method.
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