Forums
NautiqueParts.comNautiqueSkins.com - Correct Craft Upholstery and Part
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Help needed with cam timing-Ford 312 RR
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Help needed with cam timing-Ford 312 RR

 Post Reply Post Reply   
Author
MourningWood View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: June-13-2014
Location: NorCal
Status: Offline
Points: 907
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MourningWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Help needed with cam timing-Ford 312 RR
    Posted: June-30-2024 at 2:11pm
Well, it's been too many years for me to remember how to time the cam, and I've lost the picture I had:

Ford Interceptor 312 Y-block reverse rotation.  This setup substitutes 2 constant-mesh gears for the timing chain. There is a particular way to set the marks on the gears, and I'm hoping someone knows...thanks.
1994 Ski Nautique "Riot"
1964 Dunphy X-55 "One 'N Dun"

'I measured twice, cut three times, and it's still too short!"
Back to Top
Fl Inboards View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: January-20-2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2084
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fl Inboards Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-04-2024 at 10:25am
Call Nautique Parts.com and ask for our old friend Woody, ill bet he knows something about it.
910-247-6201
Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.




1993 Shamrock "fat" 20. 2008 Nautique 196 5.0
Back to Top
MrMcD View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: January-28-2014
Location: Folsom, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 3687
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-05-2024 at 2:12am
I have pretty good engine parts sources, I tried to chase this issue today to see what could be found.  No Luck, I can verify the 312 and 292 Y blocks share the same timing sets so use both engines in your searches.

The 292 timing chain set up is odd.  the sprocket marks both face the Left side of the engine on set up and the chain has 2 marks on it for alignment with the two sprockets.   The Gear Drive your unit uses may have an odd set up like the chain drive.  (left side in engine talk is always determined when you are standing behind the flywheel looking forward towards the front of the car.   So looking at the engine from the actual front the Left side would be on the RIGHT, looking from the front.

IF you happen to have the cam card for the cam in your engine you should be able to rotate the engine with the heads off but cam connected and use a micrometer to measure the actual cam lift in relation to the camshaft and work backwards to the proper timing set up.   Kind of like Dialing in the cam in reverse.  But you need the specs on the cam.  Any New Cam for a 292 or 312 should come with a cam card as a starting point.   Then of course you would need to know the reverse rotation firing order.  

There is a Ford Y Block Forum, Y Blocks Forever,  Maybe one of those members will have the information needed?   Best of luck.
Mark
Back to Top
MourningWood View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: June-13-2014
Location: NorCal
Status: Offline
Points: 907
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MourningWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-06-2024 at 4:40am
Thank you both for the advice and replies. 
Removed, inspected, the cam. It is in excellent condition. Lubed and reinstalled. 
The heads are still on but the valve train is out. Pressurized each cylinder just to check. Good.
So I've decided not to trust the timing marks on the gears, and bust out a degree wheel and dial indicator. 
Let's see what that yields...Confused
1994 Ski Nautique "Riot"
1964 Dunphy X-55 "One 'N Dun"

'I measured twice, cut three times, and it's still too short!"
Back to Top
MrMcD View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: January-28-2014
Location: Folsom, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 3687
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-06-2024 at 1:22pm
It would sure help to find someone with knowledge of that gear drive timing set to get you started.  I could not find any of those sets available for sale so treat it like gold, there are no replacement parts.
Back to Top
KENO View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah


Joined: June-06-2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 10915
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-06-2024 at 2:32pm
Since Mourning Wood has 2 threads on the same subject going on at the same time, here's a link to the other thread where it sounds like he talked to a real human voice a few days ago that knows these RR Y blocks and got the info he needed and he'll post what he does as he gets it all put together

Back to Top
MourningWood View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: June-13-2014
Location: NorCal
Status: Offline
Points: 907
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MourningWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-07-2024 at 10:10am
Sorry for double thread-was feeling desperate....

Bakground-engine went together great. Lined up "0" mark on cam gear with TDC punch mark on crank gear. 
As I began installing pushrods and rockers, and setting lash, it became increasingly difficult to rotate. Had rockers on/off about 5 times. It was very hard to do a compression test, and with 8 park plugs in it wouldn't turn over at all....so....

Off cam the heads, touched up by machine shop, reinstalled, same result.

That's when I went hunting for 312 RR cam timing info with no luck. Made a couple phone calls (thanks again Keno) and got some tips, but still no definitive answers. So...

Still without a 'cam card', I gathered my dial indicator and degree wheel and ended up retarding the cam by one tooth. Reassembled, it cranks over now even with plugs in. It should run. Will double-check the valve timing events before I button it up and try to start. 

But we're moving the ball down the field.....







As of July 6:
1994 Ski Nautique "Riot"
1964 Dunphy X-55 "One 'N Dun"

'I measured twice, cut three times, and it's still too short!"
Back to Top
MrMcD View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: January-28-2014
Location: Folsom, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 3687
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-07-2024 at 1:13pm
In some engines the valves can hit the pistons when cam timing is off, it does not take much of a touch to bend the valves.   I don’t know the Yblock engines so maybe they are not an interferance engine.

I can’t think of anything else stopping your ability to rotate an engine spark plugs removed.
I think I would put the brakes on till you find a definite cam gear alignment.

Some like the dots to align with each other so one is at 12 am and one at 6 pm, others have you set the crank at 12 am and the cam at 12 am.    As Ken mentioned who knows what they decided on the 312 based on how goofy the timing chain sets up in that engine.   To be safe back off the rocker arms to close all valves while making any changes.  Plugs need to be out since all valves closed would be difficult to rotate..   I hope someone can give good advice on this timing mess.
Back to Top
MourningWood View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: June-13-2014
Location: NorCal
Status: Offline
Points: 907
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MourningWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-10-2024 at 10:30am
Yeah, well so far what I DO know is that when I line up the crank gear 'dot' with the "0" mark on the cam gear it does not turn over. So I have to dismiss the marks and try my degree wheel.
But I still need some 215 hp Interceptor cam data. Either rotation will work.

Frustrating, and have the Tahoe Concourse in 4 weeks. 
1994 Ski Nautique "Riot"
1964 Dunphy X-55 "One 'N Dun"

'I measured twice, cut three times, and it's still too short!"
Back to Top
MrMcD View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: January-28-2014
Location: Folsom, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 3687
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-10-2024 at 11:19am
If nothing else is available could you buy a 292/312 timing set and use it to find proper TDC.  Then pull it off and see if your gear drive will slip on in the same position?   Call it an alignment tool
Back to Top
uk1979 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: June-13-2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1421
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uk1979 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-11-2024 at 5:09am
Had a quick look on the web.. found this may be of help, look using a tablet so you can zoom in on the gear marks and piston position
Picture 
Lets have a go
56 Starflite
77 SN
78 SN
80 BFN
Back to Top
MrMcD View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: January-28-2014
Location: Folsom, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 3687
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-11-2024 at 5:28am
That Photo is priceless and should help Brian a ton.  Nice Work!  I blew up the photo, can't be positive but it looks like the Cam gear mark needs to face straight down and the crank gear mark face straight up.  So crank gear 12 am position and cam gear 6 pm position for set up.
Where did you find a photo of the 292/312?
Back to Top
KENO View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah


Joined: June-06-2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 10915
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-11-2024 at 6:21am
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

That Photo is priceless and should help Brian a ton.  Nice Work!  I blew up the photo, can't be positive but it looks like the Cam gear mark needs to face straight down and the crank gear mark face straight up.  So crank gear 12 am position and cam gear 6 pm position for set up.
Where did you find a photo of the 292/312?

From earlier in this thread.........He's already tried that with not so good results 

Originally posted by MourningWood MourningWood wrote:

Yeah, well so far what I DO know is that when I line up the crank gear 'dot' with the "0" mark on the cam gear it does not turn over. So I have to dismiss the marks and try my degree wheel.
But I still need some 215 hp Interceptor cam data. Either rotation will work.

Frustrating, and have the Tahoe Concourse in 4 weeks. 
Back to Top
uk1979 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: June-13-2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1421
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uk1979 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-11-2024 at 6:57am
Its from a post by Ted Eaton in the USA who is into Y blocks big time...link to the post look on page 2 .. I would double check your setting on the right piston /cam cycle ?  just thought.. 
Lets have a go
56 Starflite
77 SN
78 SN
80 BFN
Back to Top
KENO View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah


Joined: June-06-2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 10915
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-11-2024 at 9:26am
How about a call to Melling or your favorite cam grinder?

They could/should be able to give you something for cam data from their timing cards.

It looks like they'll (Melling) still grind 312 cams, so they must have all the valve timing info stashed away somewhere 

Whether you'll be able to get info for your particular cam....who knows, but probably worth a phone call.

PS I'd say to check with Bosboy302, but I think you'd be talking to yourself Wink
Back to Top
uk1979 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: June-13-2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1421
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uk1979 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-12-2024 at 11:22am
Had a look at my Interceptor manual look on the last paragraph bottom right.. (gears are marked for timing ) if it was other than lining up I would think it would show it .. like it shows the chain and counting 12 pins apart?  
If your locking up look at what else you have done ? Dizzy, Oil pump, cam end float. 
Good luck hope its all sorted over the weekend. 
Lets have a go
56 Starflite
77 SN
78 SN
80 BFN
Back to Top
KENO View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah


Joined: June-06-2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 10915
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-12-2024 at 12:14pm
Looks to me like pages 19, 20 and 21 of the manual need to get posted too. Wink
Back to Top
uk1979 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: June-13-2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1421
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uk1979 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-12-2024 at 12:48pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Looks to me like pages 19, 20 and 21 of the manual need to get posted too. Wink

For what its worth the extra figure's that are no help..


Lets have a go
56 Starflite
77 SN
78 SN
80 BFN
Back to Top
KENO View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah


Joined: June-06-2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 10915
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-12-2024 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by uk1979 uk1979 wrote:

 
For what its worth the extra figure's that are no help..



You're right about that

But at least we're all trying  Wink
Back to Top
MourningWood View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: June-13-2014
Location: NorCal
Status: Offline
Points: 907
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MourningWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-15-2024 at 11:46am
IT'S ALIVE-ish!!

First, I never would have come this far without all the help given here. Many, many thanks. 

When I heard from Delta Cams that they had no info, and that the cam would have to be 'degreed in', that's what I did.
Essentially I ended up making my own 'cam card'...apparenty the only one in the world Wacko

It was a process-engine together, engine apart,  together, apart, upside down, cam out, cam in, retard a tooth, advance a tooth, rockers on, rockers off---yada yada...

But during the degree-ing process I learned 3 important things:

1-only 12 degrees of valve overlap, (intake opens 7 degrees before TDC, exhaust closes 5 degrees ATDC Geek) making it appear that #1 was in firing position when in fact was in valve overlap, because...

2- when the timing marks line up correspondingly, #6 is actually in firing position....

3- I don't know as much about engines as I once thought.

Anyway, without water or charging system, just on the battery, I got it to fire up and run for a few seconds a couple of times. I feel confident to paint/finish reassembly and then run it in earnest before plopping it back in. 

Quite a journey. I'll get some pics up in a bit. Thanks again. 
1994 Ski Nautique "Riot"
1964 Dunphy X-55 "One 'N Dun"

'I measured twice, cut three times, and it's still too short!"
Back to Top
KENO View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah


Joined: June-06-2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 10915
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-15-2024 at 12:18pm
Originally posted by MourningWood MourningWood wrote:

2- when the timing marks line up correspondingly, #6 is actually in firing position....

3- I don't know as much about engines as I once thought.


The automotive normal rotation with it's 12 links between timing marks procedure also has #6 at TDC in firing position. Some other later much more popular engines have #6 in that position too when installing the cam/timing chain/gears.

None of us know as much as we probably think we do  Wink

As you said earlier, moving the ball downfield..................... first and 10 on the opponents 30 yard line. Thumbs Up

Gotta score, a field goal won't do it.
Back to Top
MourningWood View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: June-13-2014
Location: NorCal
Status: Offline
Points: 907
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MourningWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-15-2024 at 12:51pm
Oh...I'll punch it in...Love that analogy...

As luck would have it, I reached out to the Lake Tahoe Concourse to check on my entry status....turns out I had completely forgotten to enter!! (that's what age 71 gets you)...

They put me #1 on waiting list...

Oh well, I can walk away from all this engine frustration for a while ...perverse relief.

The next day..."Congratulations, you're in"

F&%k me!!!  Back under the gun!

Sometimes irony can be pretty ironic!!
1994 Ski Nautique "Riot"
1964 Dunphy X-55 "One 'N Dun"

'I measured twice, cut three times, and it's still too short!"
Back to Top
MrMcD View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: January-28-2014
Location: Folsom, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 3687
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-15-2024 at 4:31pm
Wow, nice progress.   Not an easy rebuild when no specs are available.   Great Progress.
Back to Top
uk1979 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: June-13-2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1421
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uk1979 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-16-2024 at 4:17am

Great weekends work.. looks like you can go to the ball Clap

Lets have a go
56 Starflite
77 SN
78 SN
80 BFN
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Copyright 2024 | Bagley Productions, LLC