A 351w (stroker?) from scratch...

Well, the 67 mustang looks awefully sad without its' 302 and the engine that came in the '83 2001 is a total loss due to someone deciding to mix a full floating rod into a set of pressed in rods during a rebuild (my condolences to the previous owner Jhatem), so its time for me to start ordering parts for a replacement.

I am going to lay out what I am thinking so far, feel free to tell me if you think I am making a mistake or might be better served going another way. The budget on this build is not unlimited but I don't plan on leaving any engine upgrades to be done later either. My plan is to build standard rotation and to eventually move to the newer PCM transmission to get the prop turning the right direction.

I am buying a standard block machined .030 over ready to a$$emble (only thing special is the request for bra$$ freeze plugs and a piston to wall clearance of .030 to .045 due to the marine use)...

Going with an Eagle Crank, part number 103513850 basically a stock cast 351 crank with the stroke increased to 3.85.

Planning on eagle full floating connecting rods SIR5956FB (std 351W length of 5.956)

This combo combined with some standard 302 height keith black hypereutectic pistons (part number tbd) is intended to give me a displacement of 393 cu.

I am intending to stay away from forged components if at all possible to allow the money to go else where in the build, the manufacturer claims the above parts are good for up to 500hp, and I plan to be closer to 400hp.

For heads I am thinking of some iron flow heads from iron flow heads 190cc int/75cc exh runners, 2.02 int/1.60 exh valves, 60 cc combustion chanber, with the appropriate stainless valves, springs, guideplates, and 3/8 inch studs.

Cam and lifters- because I would like to use a full synthetic and am a little gunshy over wiping out flat tappet cam lobes (again) I am set on using a hyd roller setup. The Comp Cams Retrofit Hyd. Roller and Lifter kit that I am leaning toward is 212/218 int/exh duration, .513/.513 int/exh lift with stock 1.6:1 ratio Rockers seperation is 110 degrees.

Heads to be topped off with some Scorpion Rollers, anyone have any recommendations on pushrods?

My hopes for this setup is set it up with a prop that will allow it to reach about 5200 rpm. I will specify pistons to get about a 9.4 to 9.6 compression ratio. I am hoping for maybe 375hp?

Any ideas if the stock carb will get me there? (with jets/adjustment of course)?

I am thinking of going with a Edelbrock performer (or he equiv. performance products unit) as opposed to something more radical like an air gap so I can keep my power out of the hole and idle quality.. (not to mention my engine cover and a decent sized arrestor) Mistake?

Opinions on stock oil pump vs high volume for this appplication?

I am planning to keep the stock PCM manifolds at this point as I would rather have a tower than a set of HiTeks this summer, Big mistake?

I am thinking a performance distributors DUI for simplicity...

Need to source an alternator and a starter since I am switching directions suggestions?

Last and hopefully least I need to get the two water pumps to work correctly in the opposite direction.   

Any opinions?
-Joe.

Joe, I was hoping to be the first with a 393, but it appears you beat me to it. Should be a fun build. At first glance, here are a few comments:

JoeinNY wrote: Going with an Eagle Crank, part number 103513850 basically a stock cast 351 crank with the stroke increased to 3.85.

Ive heard mixed reviews of the Eagle cranks. Some love them, some hate them. I have heard mostly good things about Scat, though.

JoeinNY wrote: Cam and lifters- because I would like to use a full synthetic and am a little gunshy over wiping out flat tappet cam lobes (again) I am set on using a hyd roller setup. The Comp Cams Retrofit Hyd. Roller and Lifter kit that I am leaning toward is 212/218 int/exh duration, .513/.513 int/exh lift with stock 1.6:1 ratio Rockers seperation is 110 degrees.

Id say thats a pretty mild cam for 393ci. Call cam research and see what they recommend for a 393 designed to spin up to 5200. I a$$ume that kit includes the tie-bar roller lifters? Thats not a cheap item!

JoeinNY wrote: I am hoping for maybe 375hp?

Im not familiar with those particular heads, but 375-400 should be about right, maybe a little more.

JoeinNY wrote: Any ideas if the stock carb will get me there? (with jets/adjustment of course)?

I doubt it. Do a google search for a carb CFM calculator, but I am almost positive you'll need a 750.

JoeinNY wrote: I am thinking of going with a Edelbrock performer (or he equiv. performance products unit) as opposed to something more radical like an air gap so I can keep my power out of the hole and idle quality.. (not to mention my engine cover and a decent sized arrestor) Mistake?

I think so. I would go with a more aggressive dual plane like a Performer RPM or Weiand Stealth. Im running a Stealth on my 351 along with a 2500-5200 RPM cam and have zero idle issues (@600RPM) and have a tremendous holeshot. That 393 will want to breath more than the standard Performer will allow.

JoeinNY wrote: I am planning to keep the stock PCM manifolds at this point as I would rather have a tower than a set of HiTeks this summer, Big mistake?

Not sure- Ill let you know this spring/summer

From the limited knowledge we have about the Hiteks, they sound like they really improve the breathing. However, theres no harm in waiting a year since you already have the stock cast irons on hand.

JoeinNY wrote: I am thinking a performance distributors DUI for simplicity...

I love my DUI and wouldnt go any other way.

Keep us updated as you start the build!

The raw water pump should be reversable.

The carb will be easy upgrade if you feel its needed later.

Oil pump 10lbs. per 1,000 rpm any more is just heating the oil,and that might be to much with roller motor.

I've had good/bad experience with floating rods
one rolloc gets away and ruins a nice motor.

Might want to look at mini hi torque starters since your gonna have to buy a new one.

Good distributor

Just a thought could you serpentine the belt and use the water pump you have?

Sounds like a nice combo,if it leaves like your video and runs out extra thats a +/+

Good luck Munday

I'm not a big fan of the4 high volume pump either they usually have to much pressure and just blow the oil off the journal's.

For push rods I was looking at comp cam's with a .060" wall for mine they have a different tip to work well with the roller rockers too.

Any reasons not to start with a true roller-cam block from the boneyard instead of the retrofit?

I didnt mean that Cam Research was the place to get the tie-bar lifters- I doubt they have an item like that. Id consult them for the cam, though.

Its probably cheaper to start with a roller block or to convert using a 302 spyder retainer. Ive read that the tie-bar lifters are a better solution though- anyone hear or know any different?

With all the torque that 393 will make, I dont think you will have to compromise much on a cam. The .490/.490, 218/222 cam I have supposedly has a powerband of 2500-5200, but it doesnt hurt for power anywhere. I havent really loaded the boat down, but youre a few hundred pounds lighter to start with.

Not sure if the Stealth or Performer RPM will fit under your motorbox... Id check and see how much clearance you have now. Theyre about 1" taller than the regular Performer (which is ~1.5" taller than stock). There are low profile arrestors out there, but they can be tricky to find depending on which fittings you need.

I decided I would rather pay the money on the tie bar set than drill holes in the valley for the 302 spider conversion, have seen it done and it looked sketchy to me. Wouldnt't mind finding a roller block, but your talking about a pretty short window of trucks that had 351w rollers, I think 94-97 and the ones I found wanted to sell me the whole engine not just the block.

I can't much checking for clearance on my boat now, it has the 302 out of my 67 and that didnt fit under the original cover because of the way the rwp was mounted so I had to construct a big plywood box to go over it last season. Would rather not find out too late that I need to make modifications to get it to fit...
-Joe.

The 427 is a little more cash because of the need to clearance the bottom of the cylinders for the rods and the 393 only uses a special crank, the rods are std 351 rods and the pistons are std 302 pistons which gives a few more options in keeping it towards the sane end of my checkbook. A 427 will get you into a special piston where the bottom oil ring intersects the pin, and you get down farther into the cylinders where it is common that the cylinders start to become more oval shaped, both leading you to more oil consumption and the greater angles required do start to effect efficiency and engine life so I think 393 is about all I would feel comfortable with. Anyone out there with a 427 disagree?


I have a couple issues with going reverse rotation. The first is I don't know of anyone that grinds a stoker crank in the reverse direction, chances are it wouldnt really effect the main bearing life that the microfinish on the crank was a little rougher in the direction of rotation but its a possibility i have heard many swear to so its a risk. Second I don't know of a reverse rotation roller cam set up available, and its the one thing about my 302 (which i have spent more money on that I plan to spend on this build) that I would like to change. Anyone know of someone with reverse rot roller blanks they would grive for me? Third and definitely least because there are other options you can't order a performance distributors dui unit in reverse rotation for a 351 so I would need to come up with a gear and install it.

The engine turning the right way would be nice, save a few parts and definitely help with the lean when I am in there by myself so if someone has a source for the reverse polished crank and roller cam/rocker retrofit set up I definitely would keep it correct.

I think you are completely right on the alternator and starter, the fan will be backwards on the alternator but it doesnt really matter if it pushing air in or pulling it through, and I will definitely ask the local rebuilder about turning that starter around.   

I dont think I would buy a short block from anyone that I didn't personally know and couldnt drive over to with problems. Both of my CC's came to me cheap because they needed new engines less than a year after PO's paid to have rebuilt engines installed. In tearing them both down I found a$$embly errors, one had multiple problems, some pistons in backwards, connecting rods not properly resized, etc and one had only one error but it was terminal, its just turned me off to trusting rebuilts purchased a$$embled. Plus I own the tools and chicks dig watching an engine a$$embled from scratch..

Joeinnewyork, Built a 331 stroker,Eagle , for my 64 am. skier last year.Stayed w/r.rotation,just use the correct rear main seal.Would have built a 393 but I was limited to the width of the motor box,351 is too wide. Before you go the 351 route think about the 331 or the 347 cheaper on the wallet and you won't gain any weight.I am making 350 HP and about400 lb.ft. torque.The 331 was a wise move on my part,but to each his own.................boat dr

TRBenj, tried real hard to find a roller set up for my stroker,was already drilled for it,but to no avail.Cam Research only had a few R/R blanks left.Going to be hard to find, but if found let me know...
My buddy at Ford Racing say's "If 5500 is the max why waste the time and money for the little bit of heat and friction these rollers will give you. The same goes for the roller rockers,spend your money on the stroker,ain't no substitute for cubes"

   boat dr

While I don't have actual experience, in an auto it's becoming the most popular stroker since the 383 Chevy. So I don't know why it wouldn't be the hot ticket in a boat for a 302 upgrade. I certainly want one.

Thanks for all the thought and info so far, I am still going over the scenarios based on sources for parts and whats going to be the best mix of performance and reliablity. I am a little sidetracked with trying to purchase some serious garage space that would help out a great deal with this project, not to mention the ungoing 67 mustang...
-Joe.

kewl. Did you have them open up the ring gap to mimic marine specs?

Std or Rev rotation?

More parts on thier way today,

2 completely assembled cylinder heads from tristate

Comp cams Hydraulic Roller Camshaft

Comp Cams Tie Bar Retrofit Roller Rockers

and a
Performance Distributors DUI M35820 That will be curved to match and run on pump gas.

I didn't pay the summit price on the lifters but even so they are going to run almost 500 with the shipping, heads are about 800 with shipping, cam about 275 with shipping, DUI about 400 with shipping.

The cam is listed as a blower cam for a 5.0, but after about an hour on the phone with comp cams it is what they recommend, based on the flow numbers from the heads the intake manifold, the exhaust, compression ratio, and displacement. He actually started with a little higher lift but I wanted to stay under the .550 recommended by tristate for thier springs.

Still need to order the pre-prepped block once I measure up the pistons, need a gasket set, an ARP bolt set, a timing set, an oil pump, need roller rockers, pushrods, harmonic balancer, flex plate, weiland stealth intake, have the starter reversed, and most likely find a larger (750cfm) carb.

I have left over from the last motor project a new marine ciculating pump, a new rwp, a bunch of cheap valve covers, etc

Planning to reuse the alternator, fuel pump, flywheel and some brackets from the previous engine..

Will provide further updates/pictures as things are ordered/arrive/and are assembled...

Don't anyone add up the cost and tell me I don't want to know ..