Government Run Healthcare

Absolutely, lets debate ways to improve healthcare, get the costs down, and make it more affordable for all. However, it seems there is no time for debate. Congress is pushing to take it over NOW. No debate there.

Let the private market and REAL competition come in to start bringing innovative ideas and figure out ways to get costs down. Get the lawyers and the insane malpractice insurance rates out. Let insurance be sold across state lines so there is more private competition.

The government absolutely has its place....defense, space programs, etc. But, there has to be a limit!

JoeinNY wrote: Let us as a country debate solutions, to say we accept the current system says that america cant do any better than mediocre care at unbelievably extraordinary costs. I believe we can do better and should talk about how. Further I doubt we could do worse..

I agree with you on that Joe, BUT when the powers that be, the ones that are going to choose what we use are exempt, something is seriously wrong.
And check your history,the govt in ww2 contracted out those same services back then.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.
When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out.

Friedrich Gustav Martin Niemöller

JoeinNY wrote: . My list of places where Government is important and there is not really a free market.. Defense, Education, Infrastructure, Healthcare ...

One out of 4 is not a good track record. Go down to your local VFW and ask the guy's how good those VA hospitals are-

I don't have to go to the local VFW, although I am social member and have been since I could walk in the door, 7 uncles in korea and 5 in vietnam. I also volunteered as a rec therapist in a VA hospital. Some are exceptional, some are not. How does this change the fact that there is no way I could get top notch coverage in this country for 3120 a year? Do I think our current government is doing a great job at running the joint, heck no.. do I think that might be because we keep electing people that believe government can never do anything right to run the government yes I do..   

If we never stop argueing over whether government should exist then we will constantly flip between people running the government that are trying to kill it, and people who think government is the solution for everything...

Korea and Vietnam, Joe are not good examples of how good our government does things,correct me if I'm wrong but I think one were still involved with one and still having trouble and one we lost?
Please explain to me how it's good for me to pay so your employees can be happy? Right now if you choose not to to do business with my Large employer your not paying for my health care correct? Why should myself or my kids pay to make your future employees "happy"? It would be your responsibility to make them happy not me,I'd be the customer you'd have to make ME happy. Believe it or not I too was young once, growing up in the 60's. Only time Joe, will change your mind, your living in the idealistic years right now.
We need to clean up what we have before we do something that will effect generations forever, our country and way of life are at stake.
Ps I am feeling really good today part in thanks to my large employer,but I would be really happy if everyone here could donate a couple of bucks each so I could get a new boat

Joe if it makes you feel beeter, Im right there with you.these guys are driving around a car with square wheels, and they realize there is a problem but after so long they just got use to the bumps. i think the biggest mis conception is they think that to enter a hospital you will have to walk past two Marines at the entrance that guard the place. Healthcare is probably the last thing government wants to get involved in, there is no way they can profit by stepping in. when i mentioned frivolous lawsuits the meaning was this was one of a 1000 problems that easily if a law was passed could bring costs down.. mandating all records to be electronic. re-educate Doctors on practicing and not profits. I could go on and on.....and im willing to listen to what the Government has to say, the private sector is not going to step in to fix these problems, but we are all agreeing there is a problem

lewy2001 wrote: I am due for my yearly health check up and I will get a full set of blood tests and the doctors visit for $52 I then claim this bill at a Medicare office and receive about 60% back.

WOW Mark, For comparison I'm close to your age and due for my annual checkup. I'll have a general physical and blood work check for PSA's. It will cost me over $500. My wife will do the same at similar cost. Right out of pocket because we have a high deductible. I'm self employeed so I pay for 100% of my insurance, I have never hit my $2100/$4200 deductible so I pay for everything. We also pay for all our own eye exams and have no dental coverage at all not even for an annual cleaning/checkup. I've been hobbling around on bad feet for 2 years so I can try to get the treatment slipped into a year when I've covered my deductible, that is pathetic. Only thing my insurance is good for is catastrophic illness so my family doesn't go broke while I die, I hope I don't have to use it soon.

62 wood wrote:    Over 500 buck a month premiums...for CRAP insurance, dont think I've ever had a claim.   Haven't been to a doctor in almost 20 years.. at age 55, I really should have a complete physical.. cant really afford it right now. I asked the insurance company, since I havent had any claims, why dont you pay towards a physical every 5 or 6 years? (probably less than one months premium) I figure it could be good preventative medicine. Their response was I can use the physical's cost, that I pay out of my pocket, towards my deducable for the year... LaDeeeDaaaah... Guess they would rather pay for a given disease after its a bigger problem, than to do preventative?

Alan and Eric, pretty much what I said earlier. My situation is very similar. Then they are trying to force us as employers to have to supply insurance to workers. Here's what the NFIB is saying...........

The House passed H.R. 3962 late Nov. 7 by a margin of 220 – 215 (39 Democrats and 176 Republicans voted ‘no’). NFIB has been a constructive participant in the healthcare debate and has spent more than a decade voicing small business owners’ number one concern: the cost of health care. H.R. 3962 does nothing to lower the cost of health care for small business owners. Instead, H.R. 3962 will increase costs, raise taxes and saddle employers with new employer mandates and paperwork burdens. NFIB strongly opposed H.R. 3962, the misnamed “Affordable Health Care for America Act” and key voted against its passage.

H.R. 3962 will raise costs for small business owners because it includes:

Employer Mandate: requires employers to pay for healthcare for full-time and part-time employees.
•An employer mandate does not address the No. 1 issue facing small businesses: unsustainable costs.
•Hurts owners who do not offer coverage today and those who already do provide insurance:
•Employers will be required to offer a government mandated benefits package.
•Employers must pay at least 72.5% toward the cost of individual plans and 65% toward the cost of family plans.
•An employer mandate is a one-two punch. The cost first hits the employer, but the cost of a mandate is ultimately paid by the employee: through job loss and lower wages.
.................

What a great deal...

H.R. 3962 will raise costs for small business owners because it includes:

Employer Mandate: requires employers to pay for healthcare for full-time and part-time employees.
•An employer mandate does not address the No. 1 issue facing small businesses: unsustainable costs.
•Hurts owners who do not offer coverage today and those who already do provide insurance:
•Employers will be required to offer a government mandated benefits package.
•Employers must pay at least 72.5% toward the cost of individual plans and 65% toward the cost of family plans.
•An employer mandate is a one-two punch. The cost first hits the employer, but the cost of a mandate is ultimately paid by the employee: through job loss and lower wages.



So what kind of effect will this have on a small business that has 1-10 employees that doesn't currently have a health plan and is just sqeaking by?

I don't know enough about this to speak with any real confidence, just have some thoughts, and they are really all over the place concerning this.

My GP says we need to do something, too many people with no insurance, and where do they go when they get sick? The ER, the most expensive health care there is. He adds, "We have to figure out a way to get people into health care before the ER room."

I'm intrigued by the impact on Small Businesses and agree with 62 Wood and others, the burden should not be placed there in such a way that Small Business is put out of business. I need to speak up against that.

We need some form of public insurance, for example: Developmentally delayed individuals who will never make enough to qualify for health care benefits. Surely we want to do our very best for them.

I wonder why Farm Subsidies are not challenged more? (not sure what this has to do with anything, but isn't this socialism? We don't allow market forces at work here do we? I'm trying to understand the impact that US farm subsidies have . . . both positive and negative.)

It's possible that we spend way too many dollars for people at the end of their life. Americans are paranoid about dying. Many of these end of life dollars are spent out of panic and fear. I think this is a spiritual issue. I do not diminish the pain of physical death, I am around it all the time. Grief is profound and real, and moves me passionately. But we spend as if we can buy our way out of death.

Again agreeing with 62 Wood, if we spent more on preventive medicine it would be cheaper in the long run.

It's interesting that health care elicits the same kind of emotions as gun control, abortion, taxes, and the Yankees. We tend to take a side and then categorize those who we disagree with as less than.   

How much of maintaining the status quo is being promoted by current insurance companies?

I was really pleasantly surprised that we found a company who will insure my two early 20 children for a very cost effective rate, enabling them to purchase insurance. On the other hand, even though I can run six miles at a time, insurance companies have twice denied me (genetically bad "good" cholesterol). Thank goodness my wife's work has open enrollment.

Congress and the Senate are going to (or not) make a decision about health care. We can, over the course of time, change or modify their decision through our active participation in our political participation. This works best if we talk with one another, respect one another, listen to one another, and care for one another. This will take work, or grace!

Government, and other powers, may do us harm . . . financially, and even physically. The government of the US will eventually fail, if I remember history well enough, all governments have ended, ours will too. It reminds me that there is something greater to live for.

Chuck

and the free market dictates whether the government should step in and break up monopolies if it deems necessary

             Eric Lavine



Tiger Woods aint getting laid for a while
       
            Eric Lavine    lol

Some excerpts from the American Thinker Magazine Dec. 5th issue that are appropriate for this discussion. Let me know if you guys agree with this. I found it to be interesting and stimulating reading.

American Thinker Article Dec. 5th issue.....

It should be clear to anyone with a mind and two eyes that this president and this Congress do not have our interests at heart. They are implementing this strategy on an unprecedented scale by flooding America with a tidal wave of poisonous initiatives, orders, regulations, and laws. As Rahm Emmanuel said, "A crisis is a terrible thing to waste."

The real goal of "health care" legislation, the real goal of "cap-and-trade," and the real goal of the "stimulus" is to rip the guts out of our private economy and transfer wide swaths of it over to the government to control. Do not be deluded by the propaganda. These initiatives are vehicles for change. They are not goals in and of themselves except in their ability to deliver power. They and will make matters much worse, for that is their design.

This time, in addition to overwhelming the government with demands for services, Obama and the Democrats are overwhelming political opposition to their plans with a flood of apocalyptic legislation. Their ultimate goal is to leave us so discouraged, demoralized, and exhausted that we throw our hands up in defeat. As Barney Frank said, "the middle class will be too distracted to fight." Read more here.