Way to go GM !!

eric lavine wrote: i will not bow to a red dot, not now, not ever.

Why not,,, Obama did it for you... You have bowed whether you agree with it or not.

critter wrote: eric lavine wrote: i will not bow to a red dot, not now, not ever. Why not,,, Obama did it for you... You have bowed whether you agree with it or not.

This is unfortunately correct.... The other unfortunate reality is that we are in a " Global Economy". You don't have to like it, but its here to stay..

No, Gm shouldn't have been bailed out, IMO, but you have to look at the big picture. From the 1-4th tier suppliers, local economy, jobs,,,,, it all comes down to bad news. If you let GM come apart, your Fusion and your Camry just went up 20%+ in cost overnight and destroys even more of our economy.....

I've had really good American cars and really good Jap cars. I'm in the market again now for a car/truck. Looking at the reviews on both, it will confuse the hell out of ya. Both love and hate for both from a quality standpoint.. Hell, they're almost all made here anyways.. Flip a coin..

Moj'

JoeinNY wrote: Allowing corporations to act in a free market and calling it capitalism has gotten to be crazy in the last 40 years. These huge multi national corporations cannot be expected to know what is in thier own best interest much less act in thier own best interest and therefore cannot be a part of a functioning free market. If we need to allow absurd outsized corporations then we are going to need to find a way to allow them to function without destroying the people that own them while enriching only those that are paid to run the company for them. Sadly, that means a large regulation structure in government or economic slavery to the ultra rich. At this point I don't trust any company not being fundamentally run by the owner or some reasonable amount of significantly invested partners. Trying to take the high road on having a reasonable government while allowing corporations a free hand is a nice place to think you can live but you wont like the reality.

Joe, A truly free market has amazing self regulating abilities, it is when we attempt to intervene that many problems arise. There should be no such thing as to big to fail. If GM had been allowed to fail a lot of stakeholders in other industries would take notice and adjust their practices. Th fact that GM was not allowed to fail will cause others to assume they will be bailed out in similar circumstances and lead to riskier behavior.   If GM had gone under it would not have changed the demand for cars, and someone somewhere would have to build them. The employees would take a temporary hit but someone would have bought what remained at a fire sale price, and done something else with the low cost infrastructure that would then employ many. The one thing that is constant in life is change. We like the security of having something we are used to stay around, but that does not mean it makes economic sense for it to do so. We are supposed to get equal treatment from our government. How messed up is it that Ford did not need a bailout, but will pay taxes towards GM's bailout, just to have a competitor that has now been relieved of the same burdens that ford has to still deal with. GM will do well for about ten years with there debt burden reduced, but they have not addressed their legacy costs and I predict they will be right back where they were. Failure is good, It is a natural selection process that punishes bad business practices in a way regulation can't.

No offense dave but you have no idea what you are talking about. The cost to tax payers for the millions of people that would have been unemployed in time it took the market to adjust greatly outweighed the cost of the "bailout".. which frankly is minor. The amount of extra taxes ford will have to pay is miniscule compared to the costs they would have incurred propping up suppliers or finding new sources and there is no doubt they supported the effort.   

An unregulated market always has and always will produce more negative externalities than positive growth. We as tax payers are still cleaning up countless superfund sites, I personally pass buy a beautiful lake everyday that is always glass calm and the second most polluted body of water in the US. Human nature is that some will gain at the expense of others... regulation is the only thing that puts honest actors and those willing to take advantage of others on an equal footing.

It is all nice to think we live in a black and white easy solution world.. but we dont. Big boys dont have the luxury of pure positions.

JOE, We have regulated the cost of sugar in this country since nearly the time of our founding. Our government picks and chooses through quotas who can produce how much cane and beat sugar and stops sugar from being imported. Our sugar costs run at 2-3 times the world market costs. We get stuck with corn syrup in our soda, cereal and candy bars. I doubt this was ever the intent of the regulation, but it is what we end up with. Have you ever tried a Mexican coke bottled made with real sugar. Mmmmmmmm. My point was not that we need to end all regulation. I agree that monopoly's are a problem, and basic environmental laws have their place. But when you regulate and more importantly when the government decided to intercede in a situation and pick winners or losers, they often throw off the natural balance, they create bubbles, they create situations that can be taken advantage of without risk, the inherent corruption of government influences the distribution, and resources are wasted. Look at how much stimulus money went to political allies of the Obama administration and how many of those companies are already out of business. The government gave 3/4 of a billion to Solyndra when warning flags were flapping in the wind because it fit there agenda. It is not just business that makes unethical decisions that take money out of the hands of US citizens. Failure is a part of the risk of business, If our government offers to cover the costs of risk, our businesses will take more risks, and you and I will pay for it. Undoubtedly there is a cost to a company like GM going under, and it is fairly easy to calculate, but the cost of the bailouts, and how thy will effect business behavior will go far beyond what we paid for them at the time.

GMs owners were given the boot but their legacy lives on with the legacy costs of their union contracts. The company was relieved of much of its debt by the government strong arming its creditors but again I give it about ten years before we are right back in the same place. If the government cant unload its ownership GM will be like another USPS sucking money from the general fund every year.

b.....you died really hard, keep reading your consumers digest, i hear Charmin is the softest toilet paper and wont chafe your ass

Eric, I don't have anything against American car companies. Re-read my post. I WAS a die-hard chevy guy. But I'd much rather keep the money in my pocket and not in the mechanics. THAT is why I switched. Maybe that is why you like American product so much? I'm not intentionally trying to bash you here but you're not giving us any concrete data on why American motor vehicles are superior? If they start designing superior products then it's a different story but right now I just don't believe it is true unfortunately. Based on auto sales it would seem the american consumers agree, even paying more for imports because they know it will cost them less in the long run and they have higher resale values. That is fact.

So what kind of dip chit does that make you Nick, as an engineer in the industry, as well as the rest of us here? The Japs can out engineer/build/think the folks here in the states and build a far superior product? How did we ever manage to beat there asses back in WWII?? The Jap car Kool-aide is such total BS, there is no loyalty to country anymore with these fukn kids, it's all about me.

I'm with Eric, Pound your ***************got azz jap carz straight up your fukn azzez!!!!

bhectus wrote: Hey, don't forget to come up for air once and a while...... K?

F U jag of, have some fukn respect ya punk!!!!

quinner wrote: there is no loyalty to country anymore with these fukn kids, it's all about me.

Maybe these kids watched GM throw their loyalty to the American people out the window when they were closing up factories and sending jobs overseas and over the border all while lowering the quality and reliability of their product.

I really don't see how supporting a company that has outsourced most of their products content overseas and moved most of their manufacturing over the border is patriotic. It just shows you how effective advertising campaigns can be.

Motorola is an "American" company headquartered in Schaumburg,IL. Isn't it funny that you never hear anyone proclaiming to be patriotic by buying a Motorola smart phone???

quinner wrote: So what kind of dip chit does that make you Nick, as an engineer in the industry, as well as the rest of us here? The Japs can out engineer/build/think the folks here in the states and build a far superior product? How did we ever manage to beat there asses back in WWII?? The Jap car Kool-aide is such total BS, there is no loyalty to country anymore with these fukn kids, it's all about me. I'm with Eric, Pound your ***************got azz jap carz straight up your fukn azzez!!!!

nice attitude...i don't like what you have to say, let's fight

take the time to read and understand the american made index linked earlier...like it or not, a Tundra is more american (in terms of where it's built and where it's parts are built) than an F150 or silverado...this is fact...but, it seems you guys don't care of facts...seriously, what do you have against the foreign auto companies??

Woah, quinner is fully torqued.

Did I already do the Facks are Facks quote in this thread?

OK, now I am losing my way, Jap is better, or wait, more american is better, no, it's building your products in a different country is bad, chit, but isn't that what the japs are doing and they are the best?

do you guys boycot miller and budweiser too?? both made in US...both foreign owned...this is kind of like arguing with my wife...she hates facts too

is this quinner??